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  1. #1241
    Quote Originally Posted by Cory View Post
    Yeah, I'll say the same thing LA stated, it's not that Zach is that much worse defensively than Wiggins or KAT. He probably is but that really isn't the issue. The issue is we have 3 defenders who by and large had no clue how to play defense, playing together a ton. And even when those guys were subbed in and out, we routinely had 2 of our best on-court players offensively with no clue how to play defense surrounded by marginal defenders outside of Rubio and Dieng. It's no coincidence that Lavine being hurt and being replaced by guys who are closer to average defensively would produce a big turn around defensively. It also wouldn't be that shocking had Wiggins been hurt and we had the same or similar turnaround.

    Wiggins and Lavine are duplicates of themselves offensively in that they are volume scorers. They're also duplicates defensively at this point as they aren't good team defenders. Considering that Wiggins is better both offensively and defensively at this point, you find a taker for Zach and get appropriate role players in who can put Wiggins in a better situation defensively and allow him to grow offensively with more court spacing. The only talent that Zach has that we really need is the ability to shoot. In the new CBA, you can't pay a shooter 20 million a year when he takes away shots from a more efficient offensive player in Wiggins and Towns and gives you another hole on the defensive side of the court that can't be masqueraded given the current rosters youth and inexperience at the same things he struggles with.
    I agree. Thibs defenses in Chicago were able to function with a poor individual defender like Carlos Boozer, but it would have been a lot harder to function with 3 or 4 guys in the rotation who aren't great defenders.

    Going forward, it really does seem like the Wolves are going to have choose between Lavine and Bazz. Assuming Wiggins, I'm just not sure how you can commit the minutes and money to 3 wings who are all offense first type guys. Even if we could afford all 3, the logistics of playing them all means we're going to have 2 lesser wing defenders on the court most of each game.

  2. #1242
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    I have no issue letting Shabazz walk and it appears the team doesn't either or he would already be signed long term. Isaac would be a nice replacement long term bringing a defensive/rebounder/shooter to the SF spot. His length and size would give us something we don't have at the wing position plus it gives the team flexibility with moving Wiggins to OG to take advantage of certain matchups.
    It doesn’t matter if you are a king or street sweeper pretty soon you will dance with the reaper!

    Its better to be silent and everyone think your an idiot than open your mouth and remove all doubt.

    “Statistics are no substitute for judgment”
    Henry Clay

  3. #1243
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    Quote Originally Posted by dschroeder01 View Post
    I agree. Thibs defenses in Chicago were able to function with a poor individual defender like Carlos Boozer, but it would have been a lot harder to function with 3 or 4 guys in the rotation who aren't great defenders.

    Going forward, it really does seem like the Wolves are going to have choose between Lavine and Bazz. Assuming Wiggins, I'm just not sure how you can commit the minutes and money to 3 wings who are all offense first type guys. Even if we could afford all 3, the logistics of playing them all means we're going to have 2 lesser wing defenders on the court most of each game.
    A big difference between here and Chicago for Thibs is Joakim Noah was arguably the best defensive big in the NBA after Ben Wallace and before Gobert and was already playing at that level prior to Thibs arriving. Having that as a starting point for your team goes a long way to building a winning foundation. We don't have an elite defensive player on our team.

    We don't need an elite defensive big man (it would help if KAT were better at it) but we most certainly need an elite defensive *something* on our roster. We don't have that.
    Inching back towards the wagon...slowly...

  4. #1244
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf on the Prowl View Post
    I have no issue letting Shabazz walk and it appears the team doesn't either or he would already be signed long term. Isaac would be a nice replacement long term bringing a defensive/rebounder/shooter to the SF spot. His length and size would give us something we don't have at the wing position plus it gives the team flexibility with moving Wiggins to OG to take advantage of certain matchups.
    There's a relatively significant part of me that, as much as I think Wiggins *can* be a very good player and would want to keep him around...it's better to keep Bazz and either start him (Zach off the pine) and swap Wiggins out in the offseason since his perceived value is still probably pretty high around the league or keep him and he's a backup/veteran on this team (while still peddling Wiggins out for a stretch 4).

    Bazz is awful defensively but he's going to be cheaper to keep than Wiggins (not just in next contract but the third contract). It doesn't matter as much now, obviously, but financial flexibility sort of matters in time.

    I like Wiggins *but* at times I can see a case to move him and at times think that moving Wiggins may not be the worst thing.

    Rubio and KAT are probably the only untouchable guys on this roster IMO.
    Last edited by The Country Club; Yesterday at 04:41 AM.
    Inching back towards the wagon...slowly...

  5. #1245
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    I think we should trade every one and start over. I mean clearly this is not working KAT is so overrated because his defense is pretty ordinary and he shoots way to many 3's. Wiggins defense is poor and his game is so up and down he clearly should be traded for a more balanced 12 ppg scorer who defends better. Lavine has the bad wheel and doesn't defend much we shouldn't have him around we will never win with him. Rubio is overated even when he is playing well it short changes everyone else because the defenses stay compact. This team will never win because they fail to acquire the perfect players to play in the NBA only the Spurs, Cavs, and Warriors do that evidently. Don't even get me started on the bench players who stink.
    It doesn’t matter if you are a king or street sweeper pretty soon you will dance with the reaper!

    Its better to be silent and everyone think your an idiot than open your mouth and remove all doubt.

    “Statistics are no substitute for judgment”
    Henry Clay

  6. #1246
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    I'm not going to worry about how many 3s KAT takes when he leads the league in points in the paint.

    When they stop officiating him like a rookie, he might average 30.

    (But, yeah...I know you're being sarcastic)

  7. #1247
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf on the Prowl View Post
    I have no issue letting Shabazz walk and it appears the team doesn't either or he would already be signed long term. Isaac would be a nice replacement long term bringing a defensive/rebounder/shooter to the SF spot. His length and size would give us something we don't have at the wing position plus it gives the team flexibility with moving Wiggins to OG to take advantage of certain matchups.
    I'd like to keep Bazz if we could get him for 6-8 mil.

    We have serious depth issues and that's on Thibs. Maybe his coaching style isn't the best for these young guys either. The players didn't respond to Smitch last year when he was a raving lunatic. Only after he backed off we finished strong the last 7 weeks. This year is frighteningly similar to last year except we are fading down the stretch.

    The worst part is I have little confidence going into next year and for fans that is a killer. The players haven't responded to Thibs well all year. Why will they next year? We badly need a stud PF and an Aminu type 3-4.

  8. #1248
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    Add a 1 in front of the number you'd pay Bazz...

  9. #1249
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    Quote Originally Posted by LEvine View Post
    Add a 1 in front of the number you'd pay Bazz...
    If a team is willing to pay Bazz 16-18 mil they can have him.

  10. #1250
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick K View Post
    If a team is willing to pay Bazz 16-18 mil they can have him.
    Can't remember the numbers offhand, but according to Doogie, we offered him either 12 or 15M/year and he turned it down.

    And he's been better this year...

  11. #1251
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf on the Prowl View Post
    I think we should trade every one and start over. I mean clearly this is not working KAT is so overrated because his defense is pretty ordinary and he shoots way to many 3's. Wiggins defense is poor and his game is so up and down he clearly should be traded for a more balanced 12 ppg scorer who defends better. Lavine has the bad wheel and doesn't defend much we shouldn't have him around we will never win with him. Rubio is overated even when he is playing well it short changes everyone else because the defenses stay compact. This team will never win because they fail to acquire the perfect players to play in the NBA only the Spurs, Cavs, and Warriors do that evidently. Don't even get me started on the bench players who stink.
    B+ effort on the trolling.
    Inching back towards the wagon...slowly...

  12. #1252
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    Quote Originally Posted by LEvine View Post
    Add a 1 in front of the number you'd pay Bazz...
    I kinda thought $16-$18 was "fair market" on Bazz. Someone is probably going to shoot $20 mil at him and that's clearly an overpay (IMO).

    Given what Wiggins is and what Bazz is, what's a better value contract? Bazz can score at a pretty good clip and give you the same crappy defense that Wiggins can...only Bazz probably will play a bit more consistently and harder night in, night out.

    (I'm not advocating unloading Wiggins per se but if Bazz is sitting there in late July and we can keep him at $16 mil, I might get back on the move Wiggins train for the sake of financial flexibility down the line)
    Inching back towards the wagon...slowly...

  13. #1253
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    I of course am speaking with total sarcasm but some of you guys are so quick to talk trades when you are dealing with young guys. Michael Jordan came into the league scoring like crazy but he wasn't polished on defense. Some of you remind me of the Padres of the late 80's and early 90's. They brought up a ton of talent and kept trading it away before it hit its peak just to see those players turn into stars later. We need to build around the core and stay the course. We have not built around the core to develope this group as a team.
    It doesn’t matter if you are a king or street sweeper pretty soon you will dance with the reaper!

    Its better to be silent and everyone think your an idiot than open your mouth and remove all doubt.

    “Statistics are no substitute for judgment”
    Henry Clay

  14. #1254
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    Quote Originally Posted by LEvine View Post
    Can't remember the numbers offhand, but according to Doogie, we offered him either 12 or 15M/year and he turned it down.

    And he's been better this year...
    Wow! Didn't know that. I still can't get my head around these crazy numbers. Everybody can't make 18 mil a year. I'd trade Gorgui for the right PF. I think he was overpaid.

    I wonder why we haven't done anything with Pek and his contract?

  15. #1255
    Quote Originally Posted by Nick K View Post
    Wow! Didn't know that. I still can't get my head around these crazy numbers. Everybody can't make 18 mil a year. I'd trade Gorgui for the right PF. I think he was overpaid.

    I wonder why we haven't done anything with Pek and his contract?
    A couple things. You're right. Everyone can't make $18M a year and it's why I don't see how we can afford to keep Bazz. As has been pointed out many times, offense isn't our problem most nights, it's defense. Locking in another guy who is primarily O over D won't work long term as we have to resign Wiggins and KAT who also both fit that O over D mold at this point.

    I'm going to have to disagree on Gorgui. He's currently the 3rd best PF in the league by DRPM and is 11th overall in RPM. His offense isn't great and that's been magnified with Lavine and Bjelica out, but he's a glue guy who helps the team win most nights. Even last night against the Lakers when G struggled down the stretch, he was still one of the few Wolves in the postitive for +/-. As a 3rd big who can play both PF and C and would fit well off the bench, he's going to be fine.

  16. #1256
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    Quote Originally Posted by dschroeder01 View Post
    A couple things. You're right. Everyone can't make $18M a year and it's why I don't see how we can afford to keep Bazz. As has been pointed out many times, offense isn't our problem most nights, it's defense. Locking in another guy who is primarily O over D won't work long term as we have to resign Wiggins and KAT who also both fit that O over D mold at this point.

    I'm going to have to disagree on Gorgui. He's currently the 3rd best PF in the league by DRPM and is 11th overall in RPM. His offense isn't great and that's been magnified with Lavine and Bjelica out, but he's a glue guy who helps the team win most nights. Even last night against the Lakers when G struggled down the stretch, he was still one of the few Wolves in the postitive for +/-. As a 3rd big who can play both PF and C and would fit well off the bench, he's going to be fine.
    This is a classic example of where adv stats show their inherent limitations. G is not a good down low defender. You don't always need stats to tell you what your eyes obviously see.

    I agree with you on Bazz for that money. He adds needed depth off the bench even though he has his limitations. We didn't lose last night because of bad defense. It went to overtime because we might have only scored 1 pt in the last 3:48.

  17. #1257
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    G is paid fair market value and I'm ok with that. He's not going to be great but he can backup both the 4 and 5 and, if we didn't have KAT, probably be an adequate starting center if we had a really good defender at the 4. G's playing out of position more often than not and when you have an awful defender at the other forward spot and KAT still learning how to play defense in the paint...
    Inching back towards the wagon...slowly...

  18. #1258
    Quote Originally Posted by Nick K View Post
    This is a classic example of where adv stats show their inherent limitations. G is not a good down low defender. You don't always need stats to tell you what your eyes obviously see.
    Hmmm....my eyes see G as the guy that Thibs puts on the better of the opposition's big men and our best big in defending the pick and roll. Is G sometimes overmatched by size in the post? Yes, but he's our defensive big man on rotations and does a lot of the little things that are needed. Is he the 3rd best defensive PF in the league as his DRPM suggest? Probably not, but it's a stat that seeks to derive a player's overall impact on the game and my eyes tell me that G impacts the game defensively. Pointing at him as the problem and as being overpaid is missing the mark IMO. Looking ahead at FA, how would you spend his $16M/yr salary to get a better player?

    I agree with you on Bazz for that money. He adds needed depth off the bench even though he has his limitations. We didn't lose last night because of bad defense. It went to overtime because we might have only scored 1 pt in the last 3:48.
    Oh Nick. We've now moved beyond the small sample size of single games to minutes? One could also say that we lost because we couldn't get stops while our offense struggled. In a game where the Lakers scored 109 pts in regulation, 21 in a 5 min OT and shot over 50%, you're going to go with our offense as the main issue for the loss? Yes, in that 4 min stretch, it hurt that we couldn't hit shots, but it shouldn't have mattered. That game should have been an absolute blowout with how our offense was playing most of the game.

  19. #1259
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    Quote Originally Posted by dschroeder01 View Post
    Hmmm....my eyes see G as the guy that Thibs puts on the better of the opposition's big men and our best big in defending the pick and roll. Is G sometimes overmatched by size in the post? Yes, but he's our defensive big man on rotations and does a lot of the little things that are needed. Is he the 3rd best defensive PF in the league as his DRPM suggest? Probably not, but it's a stat that seeks to derive a player's overall impact on the game and my eyes tell me that G impacts the game defensively. Pointing at him as the problem and as being overpaid is missing the mark IMO. Looking ahead at FA, how would you spend his $16M/yr salary to get a better player?



    Oh Nick. We've now moved beyond the small sample size of single games to minutes? One could also say that we lost because we couldn't get stops while our offense struggled. In a game where the Lakers scored 109 pts in regulation, 21 in a 5 min OT and shot over 50%, you're going to go with our offense as the main issue for the loss? Yes, in that 4 min stretch, it hurt that we couldn't hit shots, but it shouldn't have mattered. That game should have been an absolute blowout with how our offense was playing most of the game.
    I still disagree. You can't have an offense go dead for an extended period late in the 4th qtr. Also, you can play the best defense in the world, but if guys throw up 26 footers with a hand in their face and still makes them, there is only so much you can do. The rules give the offense a big advantage.

    Lastly you can't expect us to be a great defensive team when we don't have even one player who is great defensively. Dunn might be an exception. With this group sometimes the best defense is a good offense. There has to be a balance.


 

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