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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by LA_33 View Post
    But you only ever compare him to All-star/Hall-of-Fame guys. Someone even a step or two below Chris Paul is going to be a max guy, or close to it, and NBA teams only have payroll space for 2-3 players who are paid at that level. I think the Wolves are much better off hoping that Towns and one or both of Wiggins/Zach (or a different wing they're traded for) are the guys who earn that kind of contract, and then paying less for a fill-in-the-blanks PG like Ricky to support the stars they have at higher-impact positions. Every PG who's going to come cheap enough to be the team's 4th or 5th highest paid player long term is going to have holes, or just be less good at everything, i.e. maybe be
    "well rounded" but not as good as Rubio is as a defender and distributor, where he's really freaking good.

    First of all Ricky is an elite distributor but he is also a not a great p&r defender and any number of pg's blow by him off the dribble. Dunn is far superior there. Ricky is wonderfully disruptive with great hands. I'll give him that. Ricky can run an offense with the best of them but how is that working when Thibs goes ISO with Wiggins late and takes the ball out of Rickys hands?

    We've had this Ricky argument for years and I'm not trying to change anybody's mind. I just drives me nuts when his value is exaggerated when nobody is willing to give us anything for him. The guy has serious holes in his game that's all I'm saying. If you want to argue that he doesn't, that's ok by me.

  2. #22
    Such a strange time to be on an anti-Rubio jag...

    He's currently shooting a career high from the field. His usage has been going up every month and his efficiency has been rising with it. He's coming off a great January (10/10) where he shot a respectable 41% (and had a 55% TS%).

    He's been a terrific midrange shooter this year. He's at 50% from 10-16 and 44% from 16 <3.

    He's on one of his best scoring streaks in his career. Past 5 games: 16 PPG on 43/46/85 with at least two 3PM in 3 of the 5 games.

    He's been under 10 points in only 3 of the past 14 games (and one of them he played 16 minutes before leaving with a minor injury).

    And by RPM, he's been the clear 2nd best defensive PG in the game this year.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Nick K View Post
    First of all Ricky is an elite distributor but he is also a not a great p&r defender and any number of pg's blow by him off the dribble. Dunn is far superior there. Ricky is wonderfully disruptive with great hands. I'll give him that. Ricky can run an offense with the best of them but how is that working when Thibs goes ISO with Wiggins late and takes the ball out of Rickys hands?

    We've had this Ricky argument for years and I'm not trying to change anybody's mind. I just drives me nuts when his value is exaggerated when nobody is willing to give us anything for him. The guy has serious holes in his game that's all I'm saying. If you want to argue that he doesn't, that's ok by me.
    It seems these Rubio discussions always involve the straw man argument. Sigh...

    No one is writing the things you are claiming.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Nick K View Post
    You are asking an impossible question because no one has offered much for Rubio that we know of. If Rubio were so good why aren't teams lined up to get him?
    That's your question. I don't think any of us are asking that though. I would say just about anyone who has been positive of Rubio has also been very aware he's somewhere around 10-18 in PG rankings in the league depending on how he's playing at the time. Guys that are better then him just aren't going to be dealt for him unless Lavine or Wiggins is included, and for the same reasons those teams won't downgrade, we aren't going to downgrade our position for someone who may be a more consistent shooter but is a worse defender and true PG. I think the name that most often comes up because of rumored interest is Darren Collison. If a Rubio trade nets us him alone, I'm not interested. If you want to compare what the Wolves look like to Collison that's a fair conversation too. But if you want to compare him to Chris Paul and the top 5 PG's in the league, you're going to draw a really obvious conclusion that we would be better with a better player at the position. No one debates that.

    I think we'll be faced with a real question of drafting a PG again in the draft. The French kid looks promising and seems to be flying under the radar a little with how good the college freshman PG's are but he may be available in the mid-late lotto. I think it's more likely we go for a stretch 4 in that range but if the French kid can play, I wouldn't object to another PG as long as it meant a potential trade of young guys or a move off of PG for Dunn. We'll see if he gets any run with Lavine down now.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by LEvine View Post
    Such a strange time to be on an anti-Rubio jag...

    He's currently shooting a career high from the field. His usage has been going up every month and his efficiency has been rising with it. He's coming off a great January (10/10) where he shot a respectable 41% (and had a 55% TS%).

    He's been a terrific midrange shooter this year. He's at 50% from 10-16 and 44% from 16 <3.

    He's on one of his best scoring streaks in his career. Past 5 games: 16 PPG on 43/46/85 with at least two 3PM in 3 of the 5 games.

    He's been under 10 points in only 3 of the past 14 games (and one of them he played 16 minutes before leaving with a minor injury).

    And by RPM, he's been the clear 2nd best defensive PG in the game this year.
    It's just so habitual for many at this point.

    I was at the GSW game earlier this year and Rubio was having one of the best poor shooting games that I can remember. He was energetic on both sides of the court and was making great non-scoring plays left and right. He was shooting poorly though and the crowd around me making their displeasure known despite his play being pretty much the only thing keeping us in the game. I don't say much, but this time I actually had to point out Rubio's plus/minus for the game to a particular fan next to me (another season tix holder I"ve sat next to for years who has always disliked Rubio).

    The point is that even when Rubio is doing well, there's a lot of long term negative bias against him and some can't see much but his faults.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick K View Post
    You are asking an impossible question because no one has offered much for Rubio that we know of. If Rubio were so good why aren't teams lined up to get him?
    LA_33 already answered your question:

    Quote Originally Posted by LA_33 View Post
    More broadly, trade value is real, but it's also impacted by the fact that PG is the deepest position in the league, so the number of team who want/need a better PG is relatively small, and the teams who both need a PG and have comparable value that they can afford to give up at a different position to match up with what the Wolves would want is even smaller. Those external/structural trade-value factors are only tangentially related to Rubio's value on the court, though.

  7. #27
    Until KAT learns how to play defense, Ricky is still the best player on our team.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Lang View Post
    Until KAT learns how to play defense, Ricky is still the best player on our team.
    You can't be serious.

  9. #29
    Unquestionably. Who is better? The conversation starts & ends with KAT & Rubio, but KAT is lost on defense.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Nick K View Post
    You can't be serious.
    KAT is the only guy I'd put ahead of Ricky.

    I think there is a pretty clear step down after KAT and Rubio though.

    That said, KAT is absolutely worse on defense than Rubio is on offense.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Lang View Post
    Unquestionably. Who is better? The conversation starts & ends with KAT & Rubio, but KAT is lost on defense.
    I also agree. KAT is almost certainly going to have a better career, and Wiggins, LaVine and Dunn (though less likely) have shots at it too. But, today, if a championship team is looking for a 1-year rental for the playoffs, I would be amazed if they weren't calling us about Rubio.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by LEvine View Post
    KAT is the only guy I'd put ahead of Ricky.

    I think there is a pretty clear step down after KAT and Rubio though.

    That said, KAT is absolutely worse on defense than Rubio is on offense.
    BTW, according to RPM stats you like so much Ricky is the 17th best PG in the league which I think is right on the money.

    17. Ricky Rubio MIN 45 31.9 0.17 1.30 1.47 3.74

    Also he is 28th overall in ORPM.

    Ricky is 13th overall in WINS but very close to 16th.

    I appreciate good defense but in my opinion defense seems to be a little overrated here overall. The numbers above describe him to a tee.

  13. #33
    And just posted today, excellent RR column on Canis

    http://www.canishoopus.com/2017/2/6/...ain-pep-claros

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Nick K View Post
    BTW, according to RPM stats you like so much Ricky is the 17th best PG in the league which I think is right on the money.

    17. Ricky Rubio MIN 45 31.9 0.17 1.30 1.47 3.74

    Also he is 28th overall in ORPM.

    Ricky is 13th overall in WINS but very close to 16th.

    I appreciate good defense but in my opinion defense seems to be a little overrated here overall. The numbers above describe him to a tee.
    And 17th is more than fine. Especially for the amount of money he's making. BY RPM, he rates as a tick above average on offense and elite on defense. That's plenty good enough to win.

    You can't have 5 All-Stars on your team.

    He's 17th overall among PGs. Its probably a bit low because Rubio does do a lot of things that aren't captured well by stats. I think he's probably on the high end of 10-15.

    OTOH, Zach is 63rd among SGs and Wiggins is 44th among SFs.

    KAT is 15th among Cs.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Nick K View Post
    BTW, according to RPM stats you like so much Ricky is the 17th best PG in the league which I think is right on the money.

    17. Ricky Rubio MIN 45 31.9 0.17 1.30 1.47 3.74

    Also he is 28th overall in ORPM.

    Ricky is 13th overall in WINS but very close to 16th.

    I appreciate good defense but in my opinion defense seems to be a little overrated here overall. The numbers above describe him to a tee.
    So you like the RPM on Rubio? What about the rest of the Wolves? Towns is the 15th best C. Lavine and Wiggins don't even sniff the top 30. G is our best player by RPM as the 9th best at PF.

    Also, Rubio's rank is his worst in the past 4 years. He was 5th last year, 11th the year before and 9th the year before that.


    Additionally, I don't get what you're beef is with Rubio if you think he's in that range of PG? Some may put him slightly higher than 17th, but no one is claiming he's an all NBA type player. That teens range of PG is a playoff range PG and he's paid a lot less than that in the current cap sphere. As LA33 pointed out, PG is the deepest position in the league so agreeing that Rubio is in the range of the 17th best PG is actually saying you think he's a really good player.

    Pointing the finger at Rubio for our struggles is silly at this point. It's clear to me that the reason why we aren't winning is the fact that we've been heaping huge minutes and responsibility on 21 year olds who don't know how to play defense. Either you are okay with losing a bit more to develop those guys, or you need to be putting the blame mostly on them for not winning.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by dschroeder01 View Post
    So you like the RPM on Rubio? What about the rest of the Wolves? Towns is the 15th best C. Lavine and Wiggins don't even sniff the top 30. G is our best player by RPM as the 9th best at PF.

    Also, Rubio's rank is his worst in the past 4 years. He was 5th last year, 11th the year before and 9th the year before that.


    Additionally, I don't get what you're beef is with Rubio if you think he's in that range of PG? Some may put him slightly higher than 17th, but no one is claiming he's an all NBA type player. That teens range of PG is a playoff range PG and he's paid a lot less than that in the current cap sphere. As LA33 pointed out, PG is the deepest position in the league so agreeing that Rubio is in the range of the 17th best PG is actually saying you think he's a really good player.

    Pointing the finger at Rubio for our struggles is silly at this point. It's clear to me that the reason why we aren't winning is the fact that we've been heaping huge minutes and responsibility on 21 year olds who don't know how to play defense. Either you are okay with losing a bit more to develop those guys, or you need to be putting the blame mostly on them for not winning.
    You completely misunderstand my argument. I am not putting all the blame on Rubio. Go back and re-read what I said. I complimemt him on his strongpoints and criticize his weakpoints. I'm sorry if my criticisms are off-putting to you. Don't be so sensitive.

    Considering the players we have, warts and all, I just prefer a player with a different skillset than Rubio. That's my opinion. You are free to love the guy. I'm not saying you can't.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by dschroeder01 View Post

    Also, Rubio's rank is his worst in the past 4 years. He was 5th last year, 11th the year before and 9th the year before that.
    Worth noting that Rubio did have a terrible start to the year. Between being in a clear funk losing so many people close to him and especially because Thibs really marginalized him for the beginning of the year, its not surprising his numbers were repressed.

    But since Thibs took the keys away from Drew and gave them to Ricky, he's responded with some of the best ball of his career.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Nick K View Post
    You completely misunderstand my argument. I am not putting all the blame on Rubio. Go back and re-read what I said. I complimemt him on his strongpoints and criticize his weakpoints. I'm sorry if my criticisms are off-putting to you. Don't be so sensitive.

    Considering the players we have, warts and all, I just prefer a player with a different skillset than Rubio. That's my opinion. You are free to love the guy. I'm not saying you can't.
    No problem Nick. I'm not pushing back on you wanting someone with a different skill set. I'm pushing back to your straw man arguments you've been using. Jimmy Butler? Chris Paul?

    I am fine moving Rubio if the right moment presents itself. I guess a better topic is just what you see as how it should play out with Rubio? You've said you don't think he'll be moved this year. Maybe in the offseason, but for what? How are we going to get the player that has the more favorable skill set?

  19. #39
    Here's my problem with "upgrading" from Rubio.

    To get a clearly better player, its going to cost more. Hell, to get a comparable player, its likely going to cost more, as Ricky is on a very favorable deal.

    So is getting an upgrade to Ricky worth losing Zach or Drew? Or losing a prime free agent?

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by LEvine View Post
    Here's my problem with "upgrading" from Rubio.

    To get a clearly better player, its going to cost more. Hell, to get a comparable player, its likely going to cost more, as Ricky is on a very favorable deal.

    So is getting an upgrade to Ricky worth losing Zach or Drew? Or losing a prime free agent?
    My argument Levine is PG is the most important position on the floor. You can't skimp there unless you have Jordan, Pippen, or Shaq, Kobe.

    We need to spend what is required to get a big time player there. Skimp somewhere else. We just paid Gorgui 16 million per year.


 

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