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  1. #1
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    Ricky Rubio Discussion & Such

    Including the Chicago comeback, Rubio's last 25 games have featured these stats:

    10.0 PPG
    3.9 RPG
    9.5 APG
    40.2% shooting overall
    91% at the line
    33% on 3's
    A to TO ratio of 3.5:1

    Very similar numbers to what he did over the last 40 games of last season (10.5/4.1/8.8 on 39.5% shooting).
    Inching back towards the wagon...slowly...

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Country Club View Post
    Including the Chicago comeback, Rubio's last 25 games have featured these stats:

    10.0 PPG
    3.9 RPG
    9.5 APG
    40.2% shooting overall
    91% at the line
    33% on 3's
    A to TO ratio of 3.5:1

    Very similar numbers to what he did over the last 40 games of last season (10.5/4.1/8.8 on 39.5% shooting).
    To be fair, numbers can be deceiving. For most of 3 periods Ricky stunk the place up with maybe the worst basketball of his career. I'm glad he put together a fine 4th qtr. Only Towns, Lavine and Bazz decided to show up last night.
    Last edited by Nick K; 02-04-2017 at 09:33 AM.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick K View Post
    To be fair, numbers can be deceiving. For most of 3 periods Ricky stunk the place up with maybe the worst basketball of his career. I glad he put together a fine 4th qtr. Only Towns, Lavine and Bazz decided to show up last night.
    Rubio, for the most part, is playing almost at the same level as he did at the end of last season...the last couple of games notwithstanding.

    As you guys know, my take is that as Rubio goes, so goes Minnesota. When he plays well, the team is usually winning or very competitive.
    Inching back towards the wagon...slowly...

  4. #4
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    No, he does not lead to winning. When was the last Wolves win streak? Yep, when Rubio was not playing.

    It is tough when you have a player on the court that does not need to have his shot defended.
    In his time here has this team ever been competitive? NO.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by StretchArmstrong View Post
    No, he does not lead to winning. When was the last Wolves win streak? Yep, when Rubio was not playing.

    It is tough when you have a player on the court that does not need to have his shot defended.
    In his time here has this team ever been competitive? NO.
    Rubio has had 112 10+ assist games. When he does that, the Wolves are 58-54. Since Love was traded, the record is 27-26. I think we all know the Wolves' record over the past several years...

    So, yeah, Rubio's damn valuable when he's playing well and used properly.
    Inching back towards the wagon...slowly...

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by StretchArmstrong View Post
    In his time here has this team ever been competitive? NO.
    Totally agree with this analysis. Since Ricky arrived, the Wolves have had four GMs and four head coaches. He's the only common denominator and therefore, must be the reason the team hasn't been competitive in that time.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by StretchArmstrong View Post
    No, he does not lead to winning. When was the last Wolves win streak? Yep, when Rubio was not playing.

    It is tough when you have a player on the court that does not need to have his shot defended.
    In his time here has this team ever been competitive? NO.
    Uhhh..when was this?

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAHchills View Post
    Totally agree with this analysis. Since Ricky arrived, the Wolves have had four GMs and four head coaches. He's the only common denominator and therefore, must be the reason the team hasn't been competitive in that time.
    I can't tell if this is sarcasm, but I sure hope it is.

    Ricky's first GM was grossly incompetent, his second GM initiated a deep rebuild, took over the coaching job when Ricky's first coach retired from the league due to age and his wife's health, and then Flip died while holding both jobs, leaving behind interim guys in both spots who were replaced after that one interim year.

    But Ricky/Adelman had a 40-win season in spite of injures to both Love and Pek, and after Love forced a trade, Flip rightly initiated a rebuild that put them in their current very young, but also very promising, position, which Thibs/Layden have continued to build on following Flip's death.

    The lack of wins is obviously "Ricky's fault" though

  9. #9
    Singling out Rubio as the root cause of our long term failure is ridiculous. I'll leave it at that.

    If I were a GM, I'd be totally scheming for a way to buy low on getting Ricky in a trade. Teams looking to build around a star like NOP (Davis), Sacto (Cousins), and Indy (George) should be happy to get a plus player to put in their rotation. A team like Denver would be a good landing spot as well given their assortment of talent. Mudiay is looking a little bust like and Ricky would fit well in a lineup with a high IQ guy like Jokic and some good shooters. It's too bad that a team like the Spurs doesn't have anything to offer in trade. I'd love to watch Ricky playing with a guy like Kawhi in an offense with shooters and so much ball movement.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by LA_33 View Post
    The lack of wins is obviously "Ricky's fault" though
    Yea, I'm a huge Ricky fanboy and was trolling that response pretty hard. Apologies for the confusion.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by StretchArmstrong View Post
    No, he does not lead to winning. When was the last Wolves win streak? Yep, when Rubio was not playing.

    It is tough when you have a player on the court that does not need to have his shot defended.
    In his time here has this team ever been competitive? NO.
    I assume you mean besides Rubio's rookie season when he went down with an ACL injury while we were in position to take a playoff spot, after which the team collapsed and we ended up at 26-40. And, I assume you also mean besides the 2013-'14 season when we finished 40-42, the first (and only) season we had a healthy Love next to a healthy Rubio. We lost 2 more games than we won in the games that Pek missed that season. Granted, that year Phoenix missed the playoffs with a record of 48-34, so those extra 2 games would have just pushed us over .500 and we would have missed the playoff anyway. But, our record was better than the 16th seed in the playoffs. I find it hard to say that team wasn't at least "competitive". It certainly wasn't a "contender", but we played well that season.

    If you want to believe that the Wolves do better when Rubio is off the floor than when he is on it, that is your prerogative. The numbers don't support that claim as Rubio's healthy seasons have had our best records collectively since KG was in his prime, but if you want to blow that off and say we had a winning streak with Rubio out so that proves he does not contribute to us winning, feel free. Most of us won't agree with you, though.

  12. #12
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    The most reliable way to determine a players worth is to see how much other teams are willing to give you in a trade. Pure and simple. So far it doesn't appear that teams have offered us very much.

    We should be able to get Jimmy Butler straight up for Ricky according to many around here or so it seems.

    We'll see what happens at the trade deadline. My guess is we keep Ricky. I certainly wouldn't give him away. For me, Ricky would be an ideal PG to come off the bench for 15-18 minutes a night.

    Ultimately, if we want to win a championship we need a more complete player than Ricky. Chris Paul is one of the 10 best PG's I've ever seen and he hasn't really come that close to winning a championship. If we had Chris Paul on this team I believe our record would be reversed. We would have won most of the close games we lost.
    Last edited by Nick K; 02-06-2017 at 01:29 PM.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick K View Post
    The most reliable way to determine a players worth is to see how much other teams are willing to give you in a trade. Pure and simple. So far it doesn't appear that teams have offered us very much.

    We should be able to get Jimmy Butler straight up for Ricky according to many around here or so it seems.

    We'll see what happens at the trade deadline. My guess is we keep Ricky. I certainly wouldn't give him away. For me, Ricky would be an ideal PG to come off the bench for 15-18 minutes a night.

    Ultimately, if we want to win a championship we need a more complete player than Ricky. Chris Paul is one of the 10 best PG's I've ever seen and he hasn't really come that close to winning a championship. If we had Chris Paul on this team I believe our record would be reversed. We would have won most of the close games we lost.
    I can't say that I agree with your take on players' worth. There are way too many factors that go into trades that it isn't that cut and dry. Contract matters. Fit matters. What the other team actually has to offer up matters. And there are situations where teams won't trade because they know the player won't stick around (like when Love said there were only a few teams he would consider signing an extension with). None of those thing have to do with the actual value of the player being traded for, but it absolutely does affect what is being offered for them.


    I don't disagree with you about Chris Paul. I have had an unreasonable bias against him for a while, but I think I have gotten over it now. I do believe he is one of the top 10 PGs to ever play the game. Rubio is not. So yes, replacing Rubio with one of the 10 greatest ever would likely impact our record. That does not mean that Rubio is not a large contributor to our wins or to our winning seasons. I don't think anyone here is trying to make a case for Rubio to be named MVP or even named to the All-Star team. We simply believe he has more to do with our wins than some people are willing to admit.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick K View Post

    Ultimately, if we want to win a championship we need a more complete player than Ricky. Chris Paul is one of the 10 best PG's I've ever seen and he hasn't really come that close to winning a championship. If we had Chris Paul on this team I believe our record would be reversed. We would have won most of the close games we lost.
    And if we replaced KAT with Shaq or Wiggins with Pippen or Zach with Ray Allen or Dieng with Karl Malone our record would likely be reversed as well.

    If your argument for replacing a player is that he isn't as good as a Hall of Famer, you've pretty much closed off any reasonable chance at discussion.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick K View Post
    The most reliable way to determine a players worth is to see how much other teams are willing to give you in a trade. Pure and simple. So far it doesn't appear that teams have offered us very much.

    We should be able to get Jimmy Butler straight up for Ricky according to many around here or so it seems.

    We'll see what happens at the trade deadline. My guess is we keep Ricky. I certainly wouldn't give him away. For me, Ricky would be an ideal PG to come off the bench for 15-18 minutes a night.

    Ultimately, if we want to win a championship we need a more complete player than Ricky. Chris Paul is one of the 10 best PG's I've ever seen and he hasn't really come that close to winning a championship. If we had Chris Paul on this team I believe our record would be reversed. We would have won most of the close games we lost.
    No one thinks that, at least that I've seen. Just because people don't agree with you that he's a problem/negative who needs to be replaced doesn't mean anyone thinks he's a two-way superstar, which Butler is at this point.

    More broadly, trade value is real, but it's also impacted by the fact that PG is the deepest position in the league, so the number of team who want/need a better PG is relatively small, and the teams who both need a PG and have comparable value that they can afford to give up at a different position to match up with what the Wolves would want is even smaller. Those external/structural trade-value factors are only tangentially related to Rubio's value on the court, though.

    As for CP3, his lack of high-level playoff success actually speaks more to what I see as part of the disconnect about your belief that Rubio needs to be upgraded. Part of why Chris Paul hasn't come close to winning a title is that the very best players at the wing and big spots are at more of a premium and have a greater impact on the game, based on inherent structure of the game and the role of a PG in basketball. Especially on defense. PG is largely a roll-player position/job description, so having a guy like Rubio who's a complementary player, but a high level one in many regards, isn't a problem. It might actually be good, if they had the MVP/All-NBA level two way players at other spots that legit title contenders need (and the Wolves actually do have guys, or at least one in Towns, who have a chance to become that good). Remember, again, that other than Steph and Kyrie the last two years, Tony Parker is the only title-winning PG since Magic who averaged more than 10 PPG (and Magic was 6'9" and started at center in a Finals game in one of his championship seasons). Those guys are anomalies among championship PGs, not the norm.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by LEvine View Post
    And if we replaced KAT with Shaq or Wiggins with Pippen or Zach with Ray Allen or Dieng with Karl Malone our record would likely be reversed as well.

    If your argument for replacing a player is that he isn't as good as a Hall of Famer, you've pretty much closed off any reasonable chance at discussion.
    Not true at all. We all know Ricky has serious holes in his game. My opinion is we'd be better off with a guy who has a more well rounded game. It certainly doesn't have to be a hall of fame player.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick K View Post
    Not true at all. We all know Ricky has serious holes in his game. My opinion is we'd be better off with a guy who has a more well rounded game. It certainly doesn't have to be a hall of fame player.
    Which player of equal value to Rubio that has a more well rounded game would give us a better win record? Your example was Chris Paul, one of the top 3 PGs in the league today. So, you can understand why we all took to that comparison the way we did, right?

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick K View Post
    Not true at all. We all know Ricky has serious holes in his game. My opinion is we'd be better off with a guy who has a more well rounded game. It certainly doesn't have to be a hall of fame player.
    But you only ever compare him to All-star/Hall-of-Fame guys. Someone even a step or two below Chris Paul is going to be a max guy, or close to it, and NBA teams only have payroll space for 2-3 players who are paid at that level. I think the Wolves are much better off hoping that Towns and one or both of Wiggins/Zach (or a different wing they're traded for) are the guys who earn that kind of contract, and then paying less for a fill-in-the-blanks PG like Ricky to support the stars they have at higher-impact positions. Every PG who's going to come cheap enough to be the team's 4th or 5th highest paid player long term is going to have holes, or just be less good at everything, i.e. maybe be
    "well rounded" but not as good as Rubio is as a defender and distributor, where he's really freaking good.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick K View Post
    Not true at all. We all know Ricky has serious holes in his game. My opinion is we'd be better off with a guy who has a more well rounded game. It certainly doesn't have to be a hall of fame player.
    Same conversation we've had for years then. Name the comparable PG that will be available to the Wolves that represents a more well balanced option for us AND would actually be dealt in a deal for Rubio.

    If we trade Rubio we are likely just opening a hole on the roster in the short term as his trade market is not going to bring back an upgrade. He's a unique talent and won't fit every scheme and that limits his value as much as the depth of great PG's in the league. A hole at PG likely could be patched by Dunn or a potential draftee next year but neither will be as productive as Rubio is this year or likely will be next year and we're much more likely to lose more often if we take a step back at PG at this point. Just look at the early year stretch when Ricky was really bad, we didn't win a lot. He plays good, we're much more likely to win.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cory View Post
    Same conversation we've had for years then. Name the comparable PG that will be available to the Wolves that represents a more well balanced option for us AND would actually be dealt in a deal for Rubio.

    If we trade Rubio we are likely just opening a hole on the roster in the short term as his trade market is not going to bring back an upgrade. He's a unique talent and won't fit every scheme and that limits his value as much as the depth of great PG's in the league. A hole at PG likely could be patched by Dunn or a potential draftee next year but neither will be as productive as Rubio is this year or likely will be next year and we're much more likely to lose more often if we take a step back at PG at this point. Just look at the early year stretch when Ricky was really bad, we didn't win a lot. He plays good, we're much more likely to win.
    "Name the comparable PG that will be available to the Wolves that represents a more well balanced option for us AND would actually be dealt in a deal for Rubio"
    You are asking an impossible question because no one has offered much for Rubio that we know of. If Rubio were so good why aren't teams lined up to get him?


 

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