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Thread: The offseason.

  1. #141
    Case in point, I just saw this. http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/1...lves-ownership

    I really hope Glen and KG can figure this out. Maybe we can go after Blake Griffin and then all the guys KG wants to coach will be on our team. Hope Glen just allows KG to own a part of the team. Not sure why KG is being so stubborn about all this too. Sometimes things are tough and there is no right way to do things. KG can't fault the organization for doing the best they could. I wish KG would just be direct and say what promises were made that were broken. I am confused as to whether there was a promise to sell a portion of the team to KG or whether Sam was promised something in the event that the team improved (and they did) and KG felt that promise was reneged.
    The sun shines again in Golden State as the hungry Wolves remain poised for the night to come


  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by rackshaq View Post
    Case in point, I just saw this. http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/1...lves-ownership

    I really hope Glen and KG can figure this out. Maybe we can go after Blake Griffin and then all the guys KG wants to coach will be on our team. Hope Glen just allows KG to own a part of the team. Not sure why KG is being so stubborn about all this too. Sometimes things are tough and there is no right way to do things. KG can't fault the organization for doing the best they could. I wish KG would just be direct and say what promises were made that were broken. I am confused as to whether there was a promise to sell a portion of the team to KG or whether Sam was promised something in the event that the team improved (and they did) and KG felt that promise was reneged.
    I think its a non-story.

    Flip wanted to eventually build a group to buy the Wolves and he wanted KG to be a part of it. Flip sadly passed and with him, so did that particular opportunity for KG.

    Maybe Flip, Sam and/or Milt made promises to KG, but once they were gone from the organization, that should be the end of it.

    KG is great. He’s also fiercely loyal and pretty sensitive about certain things. I’m sure he’s built all of this into something bigger in his head.


  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by LEvine View Post
    I think its a non-story.

    Flip wanted to eventually build a group to buy the Wolves and he wanted KG to be a part of it. Flip sadly passed and with him, so did that particular opportunity for KG.

    Maybe Flip, Sam and/or Milt made promises to KG, but once they were gone from the organization, that should be the end of it.

    KG is great. He’s also fiercely loyal and pretty sensitive about certain things. I’m sure he’s built all of this into something bigger in his head.
    Yep. That's it in a nutshell. No more, no less. Well said.


  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by The Country Club View Post
    Given the expectations that were placed on the team given the finish to last season and that the Wolves only managed to get two additional wins from last year to this, combined with his management of the roster, rotations, and the number of blown leads, criticizing Thibs is completely fair game for a lot of things. And given the regression in KAT and Rubio (who is a very good defender) on their defense this year from last, it's clear something in Thibs' defensive scheme or "teaching" is not getting through to the players.

    Honestly, Thibs' coaching this past season kinda sucked given how good of a job he's done in the past. It seemed very robotic and more stubborn than "typical Thibs" can be.

    I think blaming the players has a place but when the team is as joyless and soulless as its head coach (and played with some spunk and soul last year), there seems to be a pretty decent disconnect right now.
    Thibs is clearly not above criticism. In particular I don't like the rotations/minutes that wore us down over games and across the season.

    I'm just really cautious about criticizing his ability to teach defense. He's a got a long standing track record of being able to do it across multiple teams and numerous players. He clearly has been able to get this across to other players in a way that makes sense to many in a sustainable fashion. Are we saying that Thibs changed his approach? Or, that after 1 year off, he no longer can teach players like he used to?

    Yes, some of our guys regressed defensively. I don't have a great answer for why. Maybe the unlearning of previous concepts was a bigger setback than anticipated? That's mostly on the players though right? The alternative is that Thibs forgot how to coach defense in a way that all those previous players were successful.

    I'm not going to pretend that I could nuance out the differences in Thibs coaching this year compared to previous as far as scheme. All I know is that EVERYONE in the know says that he knows defense. Was he more stubborn in rotations? Maybe (he seems like he's always been stubborn), but the lack of a productive bench and injuries didn't help. Yes, he's also in charge of building the roster, but as has been covered here many times there weren't great options available to a team like the Wolves in FA that wouldn't have hamstrung us going forward in what was a year of assessment. Thibs has to make a mark this offseason and he's essentially said that he knows that and will be aggressive.

    As far as your joyless/soulless comment. I don't much care for Thibs sideline demeanor either, but according to Jon K, the team is still connected with Thibs in a way that it wasn't last year with Mitchell. Could that change? Sure, but I believe Jon when he's clearly addressed that topic.

    I think the question that should be asked isn't whether Thibs did a good job or not, but whether he was the right fit. Look at a guy like D'Antoni who looks great with a roster built for his style of play compared to his Lakers stint. In a perfect world, the coach is completely flexible and can coach any style to fit the players, but it seems rare for that to actually happen. Thibs was going to coach like he coaches. Who else should we have hired that would have been a better fit? Who do we think would have coached better defense out of the Wolves?


  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by dschroeder01 View Post
    Thibs is clearly not above criticism. In particular I don't like the rotations/minutes that wore us down over games and across the season.

    I'm just really cautious about criticizing his ability to teach defense. He's a got a long standing track record of being able to do it across multiple teams and numerous players. He clearly has been able to get this across to other players in a way that makes sense to many in a sustainable fashion. Are we saying that Thibs changed his approach? Or, that after 1 year off, he no longer can teach players like he used to?

    Yes, some of our guys regressed defensively. I don't have a great answer for why. Maybe the unlearning of previous concepts was a bigger setback than anticipated? That's mostly on the players though right? The alternative is that Thibs forgot how to coach defense in a way that all those previous players were successful.

    I'm not going to pretend that I could nuance out the differences in Thibs coaching this year compared to previous as far as scheme. All I know is that EVERYONE in the know says that he knows defense. Was he more stubborn in rotations? Maybe (he seems like he's always been stubborn), but the lack of a productive bench and injuries didn't help. Yes, he's also in charge of building the roster, but as has been covered here many times there weren't great options available to a team like the Wolves in FA that wouldn't have hamstrung us going forward in what was a year of assessment. Thibs has to make a mark this offseason and he's essentially said that he knows that and will be aggressive.

    As far as your joyless/soulless comment. I don't much care for Thibs sideline demeanor either, but according to Jon K, the team is still connected with Thibs in a way that it wasn't last year with Mitchell. Could that change? Sure, but I believe Jon when he's clearly addressed that topic.

    I think the question that should be asked isn't whether Thibs did a good job or not, but whether he was the right fit. Look at a guy like D'Antoni who looks great with a roster built for his style of play compared to his Lakers stint. In a perfect world, the coach is completely flexible and can coach any style to fit the players, but it seems rare for that to actually happen. Thibs was going to coach like he coaches. Who else should we have hired that would have been a better fit? Who do we think would have coached better defense out of the Wolves?
    We cant judge Thibs based on one season. I'm as guilty as anyone of being ****ed at what we saw...but I DO believe that next year will be a much more telling indication of if he's the right coach for this team. That doesnt mean we cant have our concerns.

    Just want to mention something about the highlighted portions above: To a certain degree the "lack of bench" depth was a self fullfilling prophecy. Rush and Tyus couldnt pay to see floor time in the beginning, for whatever reason Thibs refused to play HIll at all, Aldrich coudlnt get enough time to get into any kind of rhythm.. Our bench was not great but it was very poorly managed and could have been much better IMHO if it was managed better. The high total of minutes that the starters played, IMHO, was not because of the band bench but more because of Thibs philosphy. FWIW, I expect this to be an ongoing issue going forward. People seem to forget that this was "a thing" in Chicago and contributed to Thibs fallout with management. As for injures.....please. For the most part this team was incredibly healthy. Yes we lost Zach but by then the lack of playing time for the bench had already been established. Bjelly went out later in the year. Otherwise...this team was very healthy.

    As for who else was available, I've always said that I preferred Dave Joerger. What he did with the Grizzlies in his last year was amazing. Now HE had injuries and still kept them in the playoffs...


  6. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by dschroeder01 View Post
    Who else should we have hired that would have been a better fit? Who do we think would have coached better defense out of the Wolves?
    Scott Brooks (at least on the first question). Perhaps David Blatt.

    They were two that I was mostly on board with a year ago and still think they would have been better hires than Thibs. I don't think Thibs is a championship coach because of the stubborn inflexibility of his system and his rotations...plus the minutes grind that gasses players when it's April. I don't know if Brooks is (he took a team with two "kids" to the Finals and several WCF trips) but I do think Brooks knows how to develop a winning culture and probably would have won more games this year.

    I think Blatt is a good coach that got f**ked by LeBron and should get another crack at coaching in the NBA. He has a helluva pedigree in Europe.

    I'm not saying "Fire Thibs" or anything of the sort but I think there's a bit too much defense of a coach who didn't do a very good job this past season. You are what your record says you are, no matter how much some wish to spin it.
    Inching back towards the wagon...slowly...


  7. #147
    At the end of the season King Rush got plenty of minutes and after not playing early in the year he should have been fresher than everyone he played against. Yet he was terrible. If there was one player on this team that should have excelled in the last 30 games or so it should have been Rush and he was one of the worst players on the floor night in and night out. Aldrich I thought got plenty of minutes early this season and he didn't perform. He has no excuse he got the minutes and he lost them. Sad part is he didn't have anyone to lose them too and he still lost them. Maybe Aldrich has a chance to make the team next year but for whatever reason he didn't perform well. We can't hope these guys will improve at this point we have the free cap space to replace them and we must.
    It doesn’t matter if you are a king or street sweeper pretty soon you will dance with the reaper!

    Its better to be silent and everyone think your an idiot than open your mouth and remove all doubt.

    “Statistics are no substitute for judgment”
    Henry Clay


  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by The Country Club View Post
    Scott Brooks (at least on the first question). Perhaps David Blatt.

    They were two that I was mostly on board with a year ago and still think they would have been better hires than Thibs. I don't think Thibs is a championship coach because of the stubborn inflexibility of his system and his rotations...plus the minutes grind that gasses players when it's April. I don't know if Brooks is (he took a team with two "kids" to the Finals and several WCF trips) but I do think Brooks knows how to develop a winning culture and probably would have won more games this year.

    I think Blatt is a good coach that got f**ked by LeBron and should get another crack at coaching in the NBA. He has a helluva pedigree in Europe.

    I'm not saying "Fire Thibs" or anything of the sort but I think there's a bit too much defense of a coach who didn't do a very good job this past season. You are what your record says you are, no matter how much some wish to spin it.
    Sure, the record is what it it, but it's only one potential interpretation to primarily blame the coaching for that (or at minimum, claim that a poor record has to mean poor coaching).

    What you're saying is no less "spin" than thinking that the record is due primarily to the roster/players, and that the coaching doesn't have nearly as much impact (i.e. potential to overcome the roster and create a better record) than you seem to be implying here. A different interpretation/opinion isn't "spin" it's just a different opinion.


  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by LA_33 View Post
    Sure, the record is what it it, but it's only one potential interpretation to primarily blame the coaching for that (or at minimum, claim that a poor record has to mean poor coaching).

    What you're saying is no less "spin" than thinking that the record is due primarily to the roster/players, and that the coaching doesn't have nearly as much impact (i.e. potential to overcome the roster and create a better record) than you seem to be implying here. A different interpretation/opinion isn't "spin" it's just a different opinion.
    Our Expected W/L based on point differential was 37 wins. We were clearly better this season over the whole than we were in 2015-2016 and we all know how many games were lost by collapses late. You can spread the blame however you would like for those collapses but to say we didn't improve isn't accurate.

    http://www.espn.com/nba/stats/rpi


  10. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Country Club View Post
    Scott Brooks (at least on the first question). Perhaps David Blatt.

    They were two that I was mostly on board with a year ago and still think they would have been better hires than Thibs. I don't think Thibs is a championship coach because of the stubborn inflexibility of his system and his rotations...plus the minutes grind that gasses players when it's April. I don't know if Brooks is (he took a team with two "kids" to the Finals and several WCF trips) but I do think Brooks knows how to develop a winning culture and probably would have won more games this year.

    I think Blatt is a good coach that got f**ked by LeBron and should get another crack at coaching in the NBA. He has a helluva pedigree in Europe.

    I'm not saying "Fire Thibs" or anything of the sort but I think there's a bit too much defense of a coach who didn't do a very good job this past season. You are what your record says you are, no matter how much some wish to spin it.
    Yeah, just ask the Warriors last season. Best record in the history of the NBA. No rings. Sometimes the ball bounces a different way than expected. If RPM has "noise" in it, there is even more "noise" in your record.


  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by Cory View Post
    Our Expected W/L based on point differential was 37 wins. We were clearly better this season over the whole than we were in 2015-2016 and we all know how many games were lost by collapses late. You can spread the blame however you would like for those collapses but to say we didn't improve isn't accurate.

    http://www.espn.com/nba/stats/rpi
    It's interesting to look back over the last few years.

    2007-08 Expected wins 20, actual 22
    2008-09 Expected wins 25, actual 24
    2009-10 Expected wins 14, actual 15
    2010-11 Expected wins 21, actual 17
    2011-12 Expected wins 27, actual 26
    2012-13 Expected wins 33, actual 31
    2013-14 Expected wins 49, actual 40 (year where we had that awful record in close games)
    2014-15 Expected wins 16, actual 16
    2015-16 Expected wins 30, actual 29
    2016-17 Expected wins 37, actual 31

    Takeaways: The Wolves have been awful and the expected wins and actual wins are usually pretty close.

    The Wolves are set up to take a nice jump next year IMO. We have the cap space (in a better market) to get some contributing vets that can help maintain some of those double digit leads into victories.


  12. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cory View Post
    Our Expected W/L based on point differential was 37 wins. We were clearly better this season over the whole than we were in 2015-2016 and we all know how many games were lost by collapses late. You can spread the blame however you would like for those collapses but to say we didn't improve isn't accurate.

    http://www.espn.com/nba/stats/rpi
    And in 2013-14 our expected was nearly 50 wins and we only won 40. The final record is what matters at the end of the day.

    We may have had a closer differential in points for v. points against but if you don't win games, it doesn't matter. The Wolves were only two games better from last season to this. That's the bottom line.
    Inching back towards the wagon...slowly...


  13. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by TJ Styles View Post
    Yeah, just ask the Warriors last season. Best record in the history of the NBA. No rings. Sometimes the ball bounces a different way than expected. If RPM has "noise" in it, there is even more "noise" in your record.
    Blowing a 3-1 lead can do wonders.
    Inching back towards the wagon...slowly...


  14. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Country Club View Post
    Blowing a 3-1 lead can do wonders.
    So can blowing a 4th quarter lead. Golden State loses 3 extra games out of 7 and they are still the "best team in the league". People bend over backwards to put asterisks next to their losses. The Wolves lose a few extra games over 82 games and everyone has a meltdown and start calling for Thibs' head after 1 season. Every good team had a bad season right before a good season. Next season is a clean slate. The team learned a lot this year. That doesn't guarantee they can pull it all together and make it all work next season, but I find it hard to agree with the idea that we did not improve.


  15. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by TJ Styles View Post
    So can blowing a 4th quarter lead. Golden State loses 3 extra games out of 7 and they are still the "best team in the league". People bend over backwards to put asterisks next to their losses. The Wolves lose a few extra games over 82 games and everyone has a meltdown and start calling for Thibs' head after 1 season. Every good team had a bad season right before a good season. Next season is a clean slate. The team learned a lot this year. That doesn't guarantee they can pull it all together and make it all work next season, but I find it hard to agree with the idea that we did not improve.
    Who specifically has called for Thibs to be fired?
    Inching back towards the wagon...slowly...


  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by TJ Styles View Post
    So can blowing a 4th quarter lead. Golden State loses 3 extra games out of 7 and they are still the "best team in the league". People bend over backwards to put asterisks next to their losses. The Wolves lose a few extra games over 82 games and everyone has a meltdown and start calling for Thibs' head after 1 season. Every good team had a bad season right before a good season. Next season is a clean slate. The team learned a lot this year. That doesn't guarantee they can pull it all together and make it all work next season, but I find it hard to agree with the idea that we did not improve.
    I havent seen anyone calling for Thibs head. There is disappointment..but I think everyone knows he deserves (and will get) at least another year.


  17. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingsxman View Post
    I havent seen anyone calling for Thibs head. There is disappointment..but I think everyone knows he deserves (and will get) at least another year.
    They made him GM. He'll get at least 2 more years if not more. The only thing I don't like about Thibs is his yelling from the bench. I hear him just fine sitting on my couch at home and frankly, I don't want to. At some point, your players better learn what the play is and be able to execute. You shouldn't need to sit there and yell for a defender to body up on his man. That needs to be instinctual on the players part.


  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by Sparlimb View Post
    They made him GM. He'll get at least 2 more years if not more. The only thing I don't like about Thibs is his yelling from the bench. I hear him just fine sitting on my couch at home and frankly, I don't want to. At some point, your players better learn what the play is and be able to execute. You shouldn't need to sit there and yell for a defender to body up on his man. That needs to be instinctual on the players part.
    Oh I agree....realistically he'll get at least 3 years..and even then things would have to go very bad for anything to happen. But as you mention, I think the caveat to all this is Glen and how he feels with Thibs sideline antics. I truly do think it matters to Glen that Thibs swears and carries on. I've said before you dont see Glen bring his grandkids to the games anymore and if I were an owner that would kind of **** me off that I couldnt. That could be one of the "intangibles" that goes into a decision as to whether to keep a coach or not. In the end though, I strongly suspect that the Wolves will have a much better year next year and this will be somewhat of a mute point.


  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by kingsxman View Post
    Oh I agree....realistically he'll get at least 3 years..and even then things would have to go very bad for anything to happen. But as you mention, I think the caveat to all this is Glen and how he feels with Thibs sideline antics. I truly do think it matters to Glen that Thibs swears and carries on. I've said before you dont see Glen bring his grandkids to the games anymore and if I were an owner that would kind of **** me off that I couldnt. That could be one of the "intangibles" that goes into a decision as to whether to keep a coach or not. In the end though, I strongly suspect that the Wolves will have a much better year next year and this will be somewhat of a mute point.
    I'm not a fan of Thibs sideline antics either, but there's a simple solution for Glen:. Change seats. He owns the team. Sit at halfcourt on the opposite side. It's not like Thibs uttered the first curse word ever from the bench. Additionally, from what I know this isn't new behavior for Thibs. Glen's search firm should have made him aware of what to expect from Thibs.


  20. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by dschroeder01 View Post
    I'm not a fan of Thibs sideline antics either, but there's a simple solution for Glen:. Change seats. He owns the team. Sit at halfcourt on the opposite side. It's not like Thibs uttered the first curse word ever from the bench. Additionally, from what I know this isn't new behavior for Thibs. Glen's search firm should have made him aware of what to expect from Thibs.
    I think it's the weirdest thing for an owner to sit that close to the team's bench.
    Inching back towards the wagon...slowly...



 

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