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  1. #1
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    Oh, hai...another Wiggins thread

    http://bkref.com/tiny/aRiot

    Wiggins (after last night's game) is 43 minutes from hitting 11,000 minutes in his career. Among players who have reached that mark in their first *five* seasons (Wiggins will do this in four), there are only two other players who are sub replacement level with that criteria.

    Evan Turner and Rony Seikaly.

    Among players with 11,000 minutes in their first five seasons, here is how their PER stacks up.

    http://bkref.com/tiny/7PbzV

    Wiggins will come in around 15.2 - near Oakley and Derrick McKey.

    And on win shares (yeah, I know...but it's there for ranking sake)

    http://bkref.com/tiny/lovmt

    Wiggins will probably end up between Darrell Griffith and Jason Williams.

    I had defended Wiggins after year two with the idea that year three would make/break him. Wiggins broke and has regressed under Thibs on offense in year 4; his defense *is* better but he's broken offensively when he's the third option when Butler is out there. Given we max'd him and we're stuck with him for at least another year after this season (and probably further than that), what is the best role for him on the team going forward?

    I had thought initially going into this post that Wiggins needs to play more without Butler but the lineups show that may not be the case:

    https://www.basketball-reference.com...1/lineups/2018

    In hindsight, moving him last offseason would have been ideal but now that the ship has sailed on that for a while and we're stuck with him, what should the Wolves do?
    Inching back towards the wagon...slowly...


  2. #2
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    When Wiggins was traded to the Wolves from the Cavs, I remember reading a quote from Andrew--something about how it would be good for him to forced into a bigger role in Minnesota because in Clevelend he would have just deferred to LeBron and wouldn't develop as much as a player.

    I've been thinking of that quote quite often lately, every time Butler is dominating a game and I forget for long, long stretches if Wiggins is even on the court any more. Every once in a while he finds himself open for a 3 in that situation, but that's the role of a Craig Hodges and not a max-contract player.

    I assume they will have to find a way to move Andrew's contract after next year (and probably send a first round pick with it). Until then, he might be best used as the "back-up Butler." When Butler's not on the court, make sure Andrew is and understands that it is his role to be aggressive at those times. He doesn't seem to have the personality to be aggressive otherwise.


  3. #3
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    The time young players need to read the scheme correctly should not be taken for granted. Both KAT and AW have to adjust to the talent around them and make somewhat hard interpretations of the game. It is difficult for them not to use "temperature check" possessions and sometimes they end having introvert games due to adjusting to the general gameplan. They come from an scenario of do it all by yourselves to another completely different situation where any and all rocks are precious.

    I see it quite differently. There are some evident improvements but these players need to step up a lot more without the ball and spend there the energy they save elsewhere, though. Overall the chucking seems to be kept in check, it is a good thing the pecking order is somewhat blurry.

    Before calling AW an end product we need to wait for his prime D and in game reactions. Then you add durability and it is not a given that he ends as just a decent player. Not every max player is going to be a HoFer and I would say many of them underachieve for medical reasons. A 36+ MPG player well over 15 ppg with good D is not that far from the nice tiers. A typical mistake is to elevate players because they have a couple very good seasons forgetting the years they needed to get there and the years they sucked after that prime, a player is not his peak but the whole package, with contract figures and assets investments like development time and players/picks/salary rendered.


  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf w/s View Post
    I've been thinking of that quote quite often lately, every time Butler is dominating a game and I forget for long, long stretches if Wiggins is even on the court any more. Every once in a while he finds himself open for a 3 in that situation, but that's the role of a Craig Hodges and not a max-contract player.
    ...and even Hodges wouldn't pass up open looks like Wiggins has...or step inside the arc to take a 20' off balance jumper like Wiggins has.

    It hasn't felt like a good fit all season - it's clearly impacted Wiggins' offensive stats this year. To his credit, he's played harder on defense and occasionally looks competent for the first time since his rookie season on the defensive side of the ball but his offense is broken.
    Inching back towards the wagon...slowly...


  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Country Club View Post
    ...and even Hodges wouldn't pass up open looks like Wiggins has...or step inside the arc to take a 20' off balance jumper like Wiggins has.

    It hasn't felt like a good fit all season - it's clearly impacted Wiggins' offensive stats this year. To his credit, he's played harder on defense and occasionally looks competent for the first time since his rookie season on the defensive side of the ball but his offense is broken.
    Don't agree with the bolded. Wiggins leads the league in contested 3's, so open or not, he takes them. Wiggins reverts to laziness on offense when he doesn't have the ball in his hands. He just doesn't work hard enough nor knows the strategies to get open at the three point line, he also doesn't use his quickness unless he is trying to break someone down on the dribble. I also think the fact he has to look away from the basket to catch a pass and refocus on the basket to take a catch and shoot, is too much for him to deal with given that his focus is not on the level of a good three point shooter. Focus, focus, focus, it's everything. You have to be locked in all the time. When you are on the court, you have no time to rest mentally.
    The sun shines again in Golden State as the hungry Wolves remain poised for the night to come


  6. #6
    It's becoming more obvious that young Andrew will never gave the heart of a champion. We traded the wrong guy for Butler. Now we are stuck with a max contract on a non max guy.


  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Kandj View Post
    It's becoming more obvious that young Andrew will never gave the heart of a champion. We traded the wrong guy for Butler. Now we are stuck with a max contract on a non max guy.
    That is exactly what he is missing....no heart. Just like the Tin Man. He's been told how good he is all his life...going thru the motions is plenty good enough. He thinks, so what if I have a string of bad games, the team is lucky to have me.

    I don't know what to do with the guy. I'm thinking/hoping he grows out of it.


  8. #8
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    http://www.startribune.com/memo-to-a...ook/474007473/

    Thibs is destruction; Wiggins is simply gutless and heartless.
    Inching back towards the wagon...slowly...


  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by The Country Club View Post
    http://www.startribune.com/memo-to-a...ook/474007473/

    Thibs is destruction; Wiggins is simply gutless and heartless.
    Souhan is the worst, but he is 100% correct with this.

    Watching Wiggins, and Crawford, play this game is incredibly frustrating.


  10. #10
    I think when the dust settles, Wiggins will be a very solid player. But he will prove he was not worth a max contract, not even close. I wouldn't say that Wiggins doesn't care, but I honestly think the dude is lost out there. He doesn't know what he should do. He doesn't know how to get easy buckets. Doesn't know how to position himself for rebounds. Doesn't know where he should be on defense. For all the athletic talent he has, his shortcomings on the intangibles and court-IQ brings him to a barely average player. Someone already said it, but Wigs has always been the superior talent on court. Now that he's in the NBA, everyone's nearly as physically gifted as him. When he's put on that same plane, his poor fundamentals are showing. And I think as athletic as Wiggins is, he lacks hand-eye-feet coordinations. Seriously. I think that's why he will never be a good ball handler and create shots for himself (efficiently) or others. The only hope I have left is I think Wiggins IS a hard worker, contrary to what many believes. His stay positive attitude and keep on working may get him to be a worthy contributor on a contending team, someday.

    I also want to be a bit more patience because for 3 years Wiggins has grown as the main catalyst for the team. The guy got the ball almost all the time on offense. He was free to do whatever he wanted. That's his game. Now the Wolves bring in Butler and we see how efficient Butler is compared to Wiggins, it's preferred that Jimmy be the play maker. Wiggins is going to have to adjust to that. For now, he's mainly adjusted by being a shooter, which hurts the team because Wiggins is best when he is slashing. His teammates are also to blame. I've said it before, but aside from Butler and Tyus, this team cannot pass the ball worth jack. Considering Wiggins' only positive attribute is scoring, if he isn't getting the ball or the pass isn't coming his way when he sets himself up, the dude will look like trash.


  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by SportsManiac View Post
    I think when the dust settles, Wiggins will be a very solid player. But he will prove he was not worth a max contract, not even close. I wouldn't say that Wiggins doesn't care, but I honestly think the dude is lost out there. He doesn't know what he should do. He doesn't know how to get easy buckets. Doesn't know how to position himself for rebounds. Doesn't know where he should be on defense. For all the athletic talent he has, his shortcomings on the intangibles and court-IQ brings him to a barely average player. Someone already said it, but Wigs has always been the superior talent on court. Now that he's in the NBA, everyone's nearly as physically gifted as him. When he's put on that same plane, his poor fundamentals are showing. And I think as athletic as Wiggins is, he lacks hand-eye-feet coordinations. Seriously. I think that's why he will never be a good ball handler and create shots for himself (efficiently) or others. The only hope I have left is I think Wiggins IS a hard worker, contrary to what many believes. His stay positive attitude and keep on working may get him to be a worthy contributor on a contending team, someday.

    I also want to be a bit more patience because for 3 years Wiggins has grown as the main catalyst for the team. The guy got the ball almost all the time on offense. He was free to do whatever he wanted. That's his game. Now the Wolves bring in Butler and we see how efficient Butler is compared to Wiggins, it's preferred that Jimmy be the play maker. Wiggins is going to have to adjust to that. For now, he's mainly adjusted by being a shooter, which hurts the team because Wiggins is best when he is slashing. His teammates are also to blame. I've said it before, but aside from Butler and Tyus, this team cannot pass the ball worth jack. Considering Wiggins' only positive attribute is scoring, if he isn't getting the ball or the pass isn't coming his way when he sets himself up, the dude will look like trash.
    What you say is true but Thibs moves the chess pieces. Thibs micro-manages to the nth degree. Thibs should just turn these guys loose and let them play on their own for stretches. Can you imagine how good Wiggins would be in Houston? That's why I'm afraid to trade him. As soon as we do, he'll go to a team with a real coach and blow up big time. You're right, he doesn't drive to the basket near enough.


  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Nick K View Post
    What you say is true but Thibs moves the chess pieces. Thibs micro-manages to the nth degree. Thibs should just turn these guys loose and let them play on their own for stretches. Can you imagine how good Wiggins would be in Houston? That's why I'm afraid to trade him. As soon as we do, he'll go to a team with a real coach and blow up big time. You're right, he doesn't drive to the basket near enough.
    I mean, I get what you're saying. A lot of people say that the Wolves need to be let loose (esp. that annoying TNT crew). But what does it mean exactly? I'm pretty sure Thibs wants the Wolves to run more if it meant more efficient points. And Thibs isn't exactly yanking anyone for throwing up bad shots. So, the kids really could just play how they want, right? I'm beginning to believe this that these players are who they are. That said, I do think we are using Wiggins wrong, and yes I would agree that if Wiggins was on a different team, I think he'd have a better impact. But the sad thing is, we have had Wiggins for years now, and we let him be who he was- and the end result wasn't pretty. I'm kind of mixed on that part.


  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by SportsManiac View Post
    I mean, I get what you're saying. A lot of people say that the Wolves need to be let loose (esp. that annoying TNT crew). But what does it mean exactly? I'm pretty sure Thibs wants the Wolves to run more if it meant more efficient points. And Thibs isn't exactly yanking anyone for throwing up bad shots. So, the kids really could just play how they want, right?
    There was a play in the Chicago game that's been a burr in my saddle for several days. Teague came down on a 2 on 1 with the Wolves up 17 early in the 3rd, stops at the three point line, thinks about a three and then makes an errant pass. He could have driven to the hoop, taken the three...either of those would have been completely acceptable choices. But Teague hesitates and then makes a terrible throw. The Bulls subsequently rallied.

    Those are the types of plays Thibs should be yanking guys over. If you want to "turn them loose", encourage them to be aggressive and take shots. Encourage them to know the difference between a 3 and a 2 and not to step in and take a lesser quality shot when an open 3 is staring you in the face or drive to the hoop and try to draw a foul. I know this situation applies to Teague and not Wiggins but this speaks to the coach. Thibs will brood and look miserable af on the sideline about bad decisions his guys make but he rarely appears to hold them accountable in the game. Yeah, that's showing guys up if you do it *too* often but messages sometimes do need to be sent. The rant/rave/screaming act has gotten old and the Wolves are essentially tuning that noise out. So, at what point do you continue to reward bad basketball?

    Wiggins shouldn't have been on the court that long in the Houston game given he had the impact of a sloth in heat. If a guy clearly doesn't have it, let him sit.

    As for whether Wiggins will figure it out, the track record at the top of the thread isn't pretty in terms of impact players. Jeff Malone (80's scorer) and DeMar DeRozan are the best hopes at this point...and even DeRozan's impact took a loooooong time to develop.
    Inching back towards the wagon...slowly...


  14. #14
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    Wiggins' last 10 games: https://www.basketball-reference.com...-sum:pgl_basic

    14.4/4.6/1.2 on .434/.243/.643 (on 14.5 shots/night with an OffRtg of 87 and a DefRtg of 117).

    At some point, a not-so-subtle message needs to be sent that he's gotta be better.
    Inching back towards the wagon...slowly...


  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by The Country Club View Post
    Wiggins' last 10 games: https://www.basketball-reference.com...-sum:pgl_basic

    14.4/4.6/1.2 on .434/.243/.643 (on 14.5 shots/night with an OffRtg of 87 and a DefRtg of 117).

    At some point, a not-so-subtle message needs to be sent that he's gotta be better.
    +100. I don't remember seeing him in the 4th qtr last night. A benching is just what he needs. Let's see if his ego can handle it.

    I wonder if he's pouting that he isn't the #1 option on the team. About the only leverage a coach has with a player is minutes. I would love to see a quick hook with Wiggins. That has never happened here. It's about time.

    Greg Popovich in a recent game where the starters came out with low energy and were down something like 6-0, called a T.O. after like 46 seconds and chewed them out to no end. 46 seconds!! I was impressed. Needless to say, SA kicked butt the rest of the way.


  16. #16
    I'm not sure what options we have with Wiggins other than to keep hoping for a DeRozan like progression.

    Kemba Walker is an interesting name. If Charlotte is unwilling to pay him after next year, would some kind of S/T make sense where we send Wiggins there along with Teague for a resigned Walker and a salary filler like Marvin Williams? Charlotte is likely looking at a rebuild at some point and basing that around a 24-25 like Wiggins would make more sense than resigning Walker at age 29.


  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by dschroeder01 View Post
    I'm not sure what options we have with Wiggins other than to keep hoping for a DeRozan like progression.

    Kemba Walker is an interesting name. If Charlotte is unwilling to pay him after next year, would some kind of S/T make sense where we send Wiggins there along with Teague for a resigned Walker and a salary filler like Marvin Williams? Charlotte is likely looking at a rebuild at some point and basing that around a 24-25 like Wiggins would make more sense than resigning Walker at age 29.
    It didn't occur to me but the DeRozan progression makes sense. We can only hope it works out that way.


  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Nick K View Post
    It didn't occur to me but the DeRozan progression makes sense. We can only hope it works out that way.
    DeRozan is the extreme outlier that everyone hopes their underproducing wing can turn into. Since Wiggins' rookie year DeRozan and Gay have been probably the 2 most talked about comps for him.

    (Funny thing is DeRozan isn't that good. He still can't shoot the 3 or defend, but at least he's way better than Wiggins at driving to the rim, getting to the line and passing.)


  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by LEvine View Post
    DeRozan is the extreme outlier that everyone hopes their underproducing wing can turn into. Since Wiggins' rookie year DeRozan and Gay have been probably the 2 most talked about comps for him.

    (Funny thing is DeRozan isn't that good. He still can't shoot the 3 or defend, but at least he's way better than Wiggins at driving to the rim, getting to the line and passing.)
    Hope is the key word here. I agree that it's not a likely outcome statistically. Outside of that, from the small sample size I have of watching DeRozan when he was younger, he looked more engaged than Wiggins.

    I wonder how an analytic based front office/coach would have addressed the Wolves compared to Thibs. Does G get extended 2 summers ago? Do we draft Murray over Dunn? Teague wouldn't be here.


  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by dschroeder01 View Post
    Hope is the key word here. I agree that it's not a likely outcome statistically. Outside of that, from the small sample size I have of watching DeRozan when he was younger, he looked more engaged than Wiggins.

    I wonder how an analytic based front office/coach would have addressed the Wolves compared to Thibs. Does G get extended 2 summers ago? Do we draft Murray over Dunn? Teague wouldn't be here.
    What defines an analytic based FO/coach? From everything I've heard, Thibs loves advanced stats. As fans, we don't and likely won't ever know what processes Thibs has put in place to help make his decisions. We know he's a tireless worker who loves receiving as much information as possible. We also know (with some degree of hindsight) that G should not have received the contract that he did, that a guy like Murray should've been drafted over Dunn, or that Teague shouldn't have been signed for his current contract. But knowing that doesn't necessarily mean that whatever process Thibs used to make his decision to sign Gorgui & Teague, and draft Dunn over Murray, is wrong. It's too friggin hard for us to know, given that we have no inside perspective whatsoever. The result is wrong, but the process may not have been.



 

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