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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by RAHchills View Post
    I appreciate your response, but I wasn’t only responding to your post - and belittling you was not my intention. I see the national narrative that ending the 14 year playoff drought somehow absolves Tom of barely getting HIS team into the playoffs in year two of his five year deal... and it’s upsetting.

    I guess I still can’t get over the fact that we could have been the 76ers of the north for a couple years and likely still made the 8th seed this year... but with a lot more potential and promise going into next year. I see this team’s ceiling as a second round exit for the next three years honestly, and that is where my vitriol is coming from.

    I can assure you that I’m upset with Glen the most and don’t begrudge fellow fans who are able to be happy with the current situation. We’ve all been in this together for a very long time after all. My post was a way for me to put my feelings into words. It makes no sense that I’m not doing cartwheels that the Wolves are in the postseason, and I needed an outlet.

    With regards to Tom getting fired - I understand that Jimmy Butler is a package deal and fully expect Tom to live out his five year deal. My only hope now, honestly, is that Glen sells the team by the end of Tom’s deal and new management decides to move in a new direction.

    I’ve lived through Jimmy Rogers, Sidney Lowe, and Kurt Rambis... so in the end I’ll be ok. Apologies if my rant appeared to be directed at you. I appreciate your point of view.
    Thanks man, appreciate your reply and perspective as well. I guess I haven’t picked up much on this narrative you’re alluding to, that Thibs is absolved due to making the playoffs. And I’m definitely not trying to go out of my way to praise the dude. Really, I hear ya on all your complaints, they’re all warranted. I’m just trying to figure out if there’s a way forward with what we’ve got, even considering how sub-optimal the current situation is. I’m skeptical of blowing it up, but I do totally see how that would seem appealing.


  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by ECA19 View Post
    How about Kate Upton ringing your doorbell tonight, in a nighty, with a six pack and a smile on her face?

    I think the odds are about the same, by the way.


    I'm a simple man. That would be about perfect!.....


  3. #63
    [QUOTE=da_blueprint;414498]Thanks man, appreciate your reply and perspective as well. I guess I haven’t picked up much on this narrative you’re alluding to, that Thibs is absolved due to making the playoffs. And I’m definitely not trying to go out of my way to praise the dude. Really, I hear ya on all your complaints, they’re all warranted. I’m just trying to figure out if there’s a way forward with what we’ve got, even considering how sub-optimal the current situation is. I’m skeptical of blowing it up, but I do totally see how that would seem appealing.[/QUOTE]

    Not at all appealing to me. Blowing it up is just what we don't want to do. It's so much easier to fire one coach than move multiple players. I just don't believe the players like playing for this guy outside of Butler and maybe Taj, and it shows.


  4. #64
    [QUOTE=Nick K;414508]
    Quote Originally Posted by da_blueprint View Post
    Thanks man, appreciate your reply and perspective as well. I guess I haven’t picked up much on this narrative you’re alluding to, that Thibs is absolved due to making the playoffs. And I’m definitely not trying to go out of my way to praise the dude. Really, I hear ya on all your complaints, they’re all warranted. I’m just trying to figure out if there’s a way forward with what we’ve got, even considering how sub-optimal the current situation is. I’m skeptical of blowing it up, but I do totally see how that would seem appealing.[/QUOTE]

    Not at all appealing to me. Blowing it up is just what we don't want to do. It's so much easier to fire one coach than move multiple players. I just don't believe the players like playing for this guy outside of Butler and maybe Taj, and it shows.
    Sorry, I should've clarified-- considering our best player's connection to Thibs, I do view firing Thibs as a form of blowing it up. I'm also not willing to cut the players so much slack. I'd trade Wiggins before firing Thibs, tbh. Again, this is not meant to be a reflection of support for Thibs, though I understand some may perceive it that way.


  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by da_blueprint View Post
    General reply first, and then Iíll maybe do some direct replies.

    I ainít trying to convince anyone that this team is not disappointing, confounding, and frustrating. They are ALL of those things, in spades. What I am trying to convince people of is that the reason(s) for that frustration are complex, and require a willingness to embrace that complexity, instead of looking for easy outs & scapegoats. I donít think Thibs is a great coach; hard to objectively argue that considering how this season has played out. I also donít think heís a terrible coach, and I think that firing him could have significant unintended consequences (alienating Jimmy; halting further potential cohesion amongst this roster, to name a few quickly) that would set this franchise back significantly.

    So that is what Iím asking fellow posters here to do: dig a bit deeper in your observation and analysis of this team, understand that thereís no possible way we as fans can know whatís happening behind the scenes and in practices, and recognize how incredibly difficult, complex, and luck-based building a top 5 franchise is. If you feel youíre already doing that, good on you. Iím fully willing to admit that maybe this is just on me being unable to handle my own disappointment with the Wolves and then also dealing with the constant barrage of misery here. I enjoy conversing with other Wolves fans enough that Iím hoping thereís an extra level of dialogue we can get to beyond the onslaught of ďThibs blowsĒ that occurs here. But maybe thatís not the case, and maybe thatís more about me than anyone here.
    I used to read this forum daily and post fairly regularly. I think weíre in the same boat. Iím disappointed with the team and with the coach at times. But when I look back at when Butler went down, we were in third ó behind two teams who were not going to get caught by us or anyone and will almost certainly play for the real NBA championship this year which will come in the western conference finals. We were clearly the third best team in the West at that point and believe we would have separated ourselves further.

    The way the team plays isnít pretty at times but the results were there. Iím frustrated with a lot of the same things others are frustrated with but Ihave no interest in blowing it all up again and again. Weíve got Thibs and weíll have him for a while. Iíll be interested to see what GM Thibs does over the summer. Iíve liked about half his moves so far and disliked the other half. I donít see him changing his system so Iím prepared to see who he brings in to fit it.
    You play to win the game... HELLO?! You PLAY to WIN the GAME!


  6. #66
    I think its ok to have different perspectives. But one thing that I'm seeing as a common thread is that this "board" is negative towards the wolves. I think that its important to point out that pretty much EVERY forum thats dedicated to the Wolves is negative towards Thibs. Yes there is an "echo chamber" effect in here...but go to other boards. There are not the same people posting and you see the same complaints. Usually the people who are posting on these boards/forums are people who know more about basketball than your average fan. They're not the ones who are sitting watching the ball the whole game. Especially at a place like Canis. So rather than dismiss the "negativity" I guess I'd challenge those of you who it bothers to really look and see if its warrented. If in your view its not...great.

    I'm happy we're in the playoffs but I refuse to put my head in the sand about the issues that this team is facing and how those issues are going to put a ceiling on how far this team can go. (In my opinion).

    Now Go Wolves!


  7. #67
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    I only go to THIS board for Wolves chat because I couldn’t stand the rest. If we can solidify a spot in the top 3-4 in the West, which we were on a path to doing imo, then we can work on smaller tweaks to get us into the top two. That’s somewhat the Houston model and more realistic than “the process”. It’s also 100% easier for me to swallow. Canis has some smart folks who know more about basketball than I, but the ratio of idiots is much higher. This board has some good basketball minds as well but less idiots to ignore.

    But I take it for what it’s worth. This is a board of amateurs, as are all of them. The best internet posters have gone on to a regular gig in print and a handful have made it to TV with the hypercritical media that’s popular right now. (Hmmm, let me turn on the TV and watch people yell at each other with zero chance of changing the other’s mind.) But I have yet to see someone post in a forum so brilliantly that he or she actually moves into professional coaching at the levels we’re watching.
    You play to win the game... HELLO?! You PLAY to WIN the GAME!


  8. #68
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    I appreciate everyone's views, even if they may be incredibly different than mine, on this team and on the Wolves. I also appreciate how knowledgeable the vast majority of this board's posters are about the game. It beats seeing some of the hot take society that's out there.

    And DR, your post up above wins the thread.
    Inching back towards the wagon...slowly...


  9. #69
    It's interesting that when you read enough material from various sites you seem to get a "collected consciousness" and pulse of what the masses are thinking about the Wolves. Everywhere I've read the opinions reflect what they are right here on this board. By far, most are disappointed with an underachieving group and aren't happy with the coach. Check it out yourselves.


  10. #70
    Haven't followed this thread but I thought I would post it here because the thought came to me in another and it makes more sense here I believe.

    I feel like the fan base is very similar to what it was in the 1999-2003 era Wolves. That fan base was getting over the Marbury trade and watching McHale and Flip run the team. Fans seemed to take two different camps, the camp that said we were doing well and we should look past some of the mistakes of the McHale GM tenure and apparent lack of effort and the fans that thought the franchise and KG was being sold short. We did have the run in 2004 but the collapse of 2005 was essentially a result of McHale and whoever was involved in roster construction decisions making bad reactionary move after bad reactionary move until it finally caught up to them. Now the moves made after that point by Taylor did not help at all either and we were comically mismanaged for over a decade. But when you look at the teams that we trotted out from 2006-2012, you can draw a direct line to the reactions of having to do things because you screwed things up with "X" player on a contract, trade, or draft selection.

    I think there is part of the fan base now that says we should really be happy considering what we have come from and we haven't seen a playoff team in 14 years. This is true but there are parallel signs developing to those late 90's early 2000's Wolves teams where bad decisions have a real chance to sink the team in the future and Thibs, the lone decision maker, doesn't seem to show any ability to grow as a coach or talent evalauator. It's not definite, but we have some really bad contracts on the books and we also don't have a coach who appears to be very well liked except for a very certain type of player in the league. If we start to go down the road of making short term decisions that are done out of a reaction rather than having a real plan in place for building a roster and scheme, we have a real shot of seeing this implode like the post Western Conference Finals team did with either a tremendous lack of roster depth or a star who is essentially forced into being dealt because there is no hope in surrounding them with talent that allows them to compete for a title.

    I get that negativity sucks, but wasting the career of hall of fame talent sucks more to me. And the fans that are out on Thibs have just come to a conclusion on who he is and who he is unwilling to be. It's not right or wrong, most of our minds are just made up.


  11. #71
    I would say so far it's 60% Thibs and 40% the players for why we did not win more and even for last night's game. At the end of the day, players play. As much as I am critical of Thibs, and I am very critical- I also have come to accept that Towns and Wiggins are just not that special. That's the truth. The two are talented, sure- but they are not the generational talent many thought them to be. I am pretty sure almost everyone is off the Wiggins ship, especially since he's usually the scapegoat, but fans need to also see Towns for who he is- a slow moving center with decent skills and an impressive shot. Their ceilings are lower day by day. Chris Weber may be right that Wolves need to go to Towns vs. Paul/Harden, but he and everyone else is wrong when they keep saying that the Wolves need to run more cause they're young and athletic. That's just false. You know why? Cause if it was true, it would've happened already. What coach does not want his players to run and get easy baskets? The fact is, every time the Wolves try to run, it's a disaster. There were plenty of examples last night. As for Thibs, I think many have already said what I wanted to say, but I would probably give him one more year with a healthy Butler and see how they do. I almost feel the hate is warranted and unwarranted, much like when Dwayne Casey was here and now he's leading his team to the play offs every year.


  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by SportsManiac View Post
    I would say so far it's 60% Thibs and 40% the players for why we did not win more and even for last night's game. At the end of the day, players play. As much as I am critical of Thibs, and I am very critical- I also have come to accept that Towns and Wiggins are just not that special. That's the truth. The two are talented, sure- but they are not the generational talent many thought them to be. I am pretty sure almost everyone is off the Wiggins ship, especially since he's usually the scapegoat, but fans need to also see Towns for who he is- a slow moving center with decent skills and an impressive shot. Their ceilings are lower day by day. Chris Weber may be right that Wolves need to go to Towns vs. Paul/Harden, but he and everyone else is wrong when they keep saying that the Wolves need to run more cause they're young and athletic. That's just false. You know why? Cause if it was true, it would've happened already. What coach does not want his players to run and get easy baskets? The fact is, every time the Wolves try to run, it's a disaster. There were plenty of examples last night. As for Thibs, I think many have already said what I wanted to say, but I would probably give him one more year with a healthy Butler and see how they do. I almost feel the hate is warranted and unwarranted, much like when Dwayne Casey was here and now he's leading his team to the play offs every year.
    Good take. I disagree that KAT is not a generational talent. I think he is, and his numbers offensively compare well with the great bigs of all time. Defensively he has a long way to go but I think he'll improve enough. I think Thibs needs his center to be the ultimate last line of defense and corrector of mistakes and KAT isn't there yet and may never be that guy. In a scheme and roster that was built around his strengths and weaknesses, I think he wins multiple MVP awards.


  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by SportsManiac View Post
    I would say so far it's 60% Thibs and 40% the players for why we did not win more and even for last night's game. At the end of the day, players play. As much as I am critical of Thibs, and I am very critical- I also have come to accept that Towns and Wiggins are just not that special. That's the truth. The two are talented, sure- but they are not the generational talent many thought them to be. I am pretty sure almost everyone is off the Wiggins ship, especially since he's usually the scapegoat, but fans need to also see Towns for who he is- a slow moving center with decent skills and an impressive shot. Their ceilings are lower day by day. Chris Weber may be right that Wolves need to go to Towns vs. Paul/Harden, but he and everyone else is wrong when they keep saying that the Wolves need to run more cause they're young and athletic. That's just false. You know why? Cause if it was true, it would've happened already. What coach does not want his players to run and get easy baskets? The fact is, every time the Wolves try to run, it's a disaster. There were plenty of examples last night. As for Thibs, I think many have already said what I wanted to say, but I would probably give him one more year with a healthy Butler and see how they do. I almost feel the hate is warranted and unwarranted, much like when Dwayne Casey was here and now he's leading his team to the play offs every year.
    Disagree with some things said. In order to have a fast break you need defense which we don't have. With Rubio we did. End of story. That goes back to Thibs getting rid of Rubio and bringing in Teague.

    We had a terrible team (players) when Casey was here this was our team (https://www.basketball-reference.com.../MIN/2007.html) The only player there worth a dang is KG
    When we had Sam I desperately wanted him another year but instead got Thibs. Still would rather have Sam back today.
    Publicity, fame and accolades can make a theory popular. They can't make it true.


  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoneCrusher View Post
    Disagree with some things said. In order to have a fast break you need defense which we don't have. With Rubio we did. End of story. That goes back to Thibs getting rid of Rubio and bringing in Teague.

    We had a terrible team (players) when Casey was here this was our team (https://www.basketball-reference.com.../MIN/2007.html) The only player there worth a dang is KG
    When we had Sam I desperately wanted him another year but instead got Thibs. Still would rather have Sam back today.
    We haven't been average in defense since Rick's last season coaching. A large function of that was Dante Cunningham and Brewer (plus Rubio).
    Inching back towards the wagon...slowly...


  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by BoneCrusher View Post
    Disagree with some things said. In order to have a fast break you need defense which we don't have. With Rubio we did. End of story. That goes back to Thibs getting rid of Rubio and bringing in Teague.

    We had a terrible team (players) when Casey was here this was our team (https://www.basketball-reference.com.../MIN/2007.html) The only player there worth a dang is KG
    When we had Sam I desperately wanted him another year but instead got Thibs. Still would rather have Sam back today.
    As much as I have a problem with Thib's coaching style (ISO-heavy offense, old-school defensive schemes, joyless, screaming, etc.), the real problem I have with him is on the GM side of house.

    The Butler trade was great, but then he had to go and blow a really great opportunity for a long term competitive roster. Of course this is hindsight, but many of us absolutely hated a lot of the moves post Butler trade. I will just post a roster which could have been without much thought that would likely be winning a playoff series right now:

    Rubio/Tyus
    Wiggins/CJ Miles
    Butler/OG Anunoby
    Gorgui /Belly
    Towns/Gorgui

    There would also be money left to spend on another free agent or 2 to fill in more depth where needed like another big or 3/4 tweener. It's just sad that our current roster has very little upside.


  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by WunderWolf View Post
    As much as I have a problem with Thib's coaching style (ISO-heavy offense, old-school defensive schemes, joyless, screaming, etc.), the real problem I have with him is on the GM side of house.

    The Butler trade was great, but then he had to go and blow a really great opportunity for a long term competitive roster. Of course this is hindsight, but many of us absolutely hated a lot of the moves post Butler trade. I will just post a roster which could have been without much thought that would likely be winning a playoff series right now:

    Rubio/Tyus
    Wiggins/CJ Miles
    Butler/OG Anunoby
    Gorgui /Belly
    Towns/Gorgui

    There would also be money left to spend on another free agent or 2 to fill in more depth where needed like another big or 3/4 tweener. It's just sad that our current roster has very little upside.
    Ilyasova would have been a great pickup on that team. It would have been so easy................................



 

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