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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by TJ Styles View Post
    I actually think Wiggins may work in Houston, though I don't think Houston would deal for him. I think what Wiggins does well actually meshes with Houston's fast-paced, iso style of basketball. I think Wiggins would still be upset being a 3rd option, but maybe he would be less miffed about it with Harden and Paul ahead of him. His contract is still the killer to any deal that could be made there, but I do feel like Houston is a place where he could actually thrive. If they ever looked to move Ryan Anderson, I think that would be a swap that could work. I don't see them wanting to make that swap as it would really hurt their ability to add talent in 2020, but I would do it in a heartbeat and I think Wiggins would be better there.
    I don't see it. He's not nearly a good enough shooter or decision maker. Or even close enough to be an efficient iso player.

    Gerald Green gives them way better production for a fraction of the price.


  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by LEvine View Post
    I just can't see the Spurs wanting Wiggins at his contract. Its way too big of a gamble for a smart front office.
    And yet SA has no one. Their locker room is pretty empty at the moment and while they may keep Kawhi and suck it up for a year and free up a ton of space I gotta believe they may want to try and get something for him. Probably a pipe dream but I don't see Wiggins going anyplace in the future because no one will take him and it's going to be a big anchor around this team for several years.
    Publicity, fame and accolades can make a theory popular. They can't make it true.


  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by BoneCrusher View Post
    And yet SA has no one. Their locker room is pretty empty at the moment and while they may keep Kawhi and suck it up for a year and free up a ton of space I gotta believe they may want to try and get something for him. Probably a pipe dream but I don't see Wiggins going anyplace in the future because no one will take him and it's going to be a big anchor around this team for several years.
    I think he can be moved, but its going to have to be a poor front office (like the Kings). The Spurs aren't going to rebuild around Wiggins. And teams like Philly and Boston can offer better deals than Andrew - likely without giving up their "true core" guys.


  4. #24
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    Reading some of the various trade proposals on RealGm and one that struck me and it works is a 4 team trade involving Cleveland, LA, Minnesota and SA.

    Kevin Love to San Antonio
    Kawhi Leonard to LA
    Ingram and Deng to Minnesota
    Wiggins to Cleveland.

    LA would have to give up Ingram which they wouldn't be happy with but getting Kawhi in return with LeBron would be a good vet team and would start with matching GS.

    https://basketball.realgm.com/tradec..._trade/7095390
    Publicity, fame and accolades can make a theory popular. They can't make it true.


  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoneCrusher View Post
    Reading some of the various trade proposals on RealGm and one that struck me and it works is a 4 team trade involving Cleveland, LA, Minnesota and SA.

    Kevin Love to San Antonio
    Kawhi Leonard to LA
    Ingram and Deng to Minnesota
    Wiggins to Cleveland.

    LA would have to give up Ingram which they wouldn't be happy with but getting Kawhi in return with LeBron would be a good vet team and would start with matching GS.

    https://basketball.realgm.com/tradec..._trade/7095390
    If Cleveland wants Wiggins, I'd rather have Kevin Love back than Ingram and Deng. Cut out the other teams.


  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Scorched View Post
    If Cleveland wants Wiggins, I'd rather have Kevin Love back than Ingram and Deng. Cut out the other teams.
    I'd take Ingram in a heartbeat. He made a massive jump in his 2nd year.

    Shot 47% from the field, 39% from 3. Nearly doubled his assists/36 and went from an awful defender as a rookie to a neutral one in a single season. And he's still only 20 years old.


  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by LEvine View Post
    I don't see it. He's not nearly a good enough shooter or decision maker. Or even close enough to be an efficient iso player.

    Gerald Green gives them way better production for a fraction of the price.
    That is actually my point. He can't create his own shot, but he shot well when Ricky got him the ball in the right place at the right time and both Harden and Paul are really good at that. He is a terrible decision maker, and he wouldn't have to make any decisions when Paul and Harden are running the offense. What he does well is catch-and-shoot when he is in the right place and cutting to the rim, and Paul and Harden would both be able to take full advantage of those things. Teague and Butler don't. Wiggins would also flourish in D'Antoni's high-paced, fast-break offense. We are too slow here for Wiggins. And, Wiggins really shouldn't be playing iso, but here he is "the iso guy". In Houston, there's no way they decide to give Wiggins the ball in iso over Harden or Paul, so that part of his game (which is a negative) is gone.

    At the end of the day, I think Wiggins is offensively a much better Trevor Ariza or (as you mentioned) Gerald Green than he is a Kobe Bryant or Tracy McGrady. Here in MN, he can point to the pieces we have and say he should have the ball in his hands, and that actually takes all of his best tools away. In Houston, I think he would be used the way he should, which is exactly the opposite of how he is used here, and is exactly opposite of the player you are suggesting he isn't. In short, I agree with all of what you say, and my point is that he won't be allowed to be "that guy" in Houston.

    That said, I agree with the price thing. Wiggins' contract is an absolute killer. I don't think that Houston would deal for him solely because of the money, even if they did agree with me on how he should be used if he got there. If he played good defense it would be salvageable, but he doesn't, and the things he wants to do and be known for are things he doesn't do well, so he is constantly killing his value by continuing to do those things. I do ultimately agree with you that next off season is likely a better time to move him. I just think that if you look past the contract and Wiggins' issues allowing others to have the spotlight, he would do well in that system if he were able to embrace the role he is actually suited for. With us, even if he were to magically decide to stick with what he does well, he would still not produce because our players couldn't get him the ball when he needed it.


  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by TJ Styles View Post
    That is actually my point. He can't create his own shot, but he shot well when Ricky got him the ball in the right place at the right time and both Harden and Paul are really good at that. He is a terrible decision maker, and he wouldn't have to make any decisions when Paul and Harden are running the offense. What he does well is catch-and-shoot when he is in the right place and cutting to the rim, and Paul and Harden would both be able to take full advantage of those things. Teague and Butler don't. Wiggins would also flourish in D'Antoni's high-paced, fast-break offense. We are too slow here for Wiggins. And, Wiggins really shouldn't be playing iso, but here he is "the iso guy". In Houston, there's no way they decide to give Wiggins the ball in iso over Harden or Paul, so that part of his game (which is a negative) is gone.

    At the end of the day, I think Wiggins is offensively a much better Trevor Ariza or (as you mentioned) Gerald Green than he is a Kobe Bryant or Tracy McGrady. Here in MN, he can point to the pieces we have and say he should have the ball in his hands, and that actually takes all of his best tools away. In Houston, I think he would be used the way he should, which is exactly the opposite of how he is used here, and is exactly opposite of the player you are suggesting he isn't. In short, I agree with all of what you say, and my point is that he won't be allowed to be "that guy" in Houston.

    That said, I agree with the price thing. Wiggins' contract is an absolute killer. I don't think that Houston would deal for him solely because of the money, even if they did agree with me on how he should be used if he got there. If he played good defense it would be salvageable, but he doesn't, and the things he wants to do and be known for are things he doesn't do well, so he is constantly killing his value by continuing to do those things. I do ultimately agree with you that next off season is likely a better time to move him. I just think that if you look past the contract and Wiggins' issues allowing others to have the spotlight, he would do well in that system if he were able to embrace the role he is actually suited for. With us, even if he were to magically decide to stick with what he does well, he would still not produce because our players couldn't get him the ball when he needed it.
    I think you (unintentionally?) hit on the biggest Wiggins problem:

    He's not good enough to be a primary scorer and he doesn't have the skills to be a complimentary one. He's stuck in no-man's land.

    I don't see him thriving at all in Houston. He's really bad at moving without the ball and he doesn't appear to see the court well. I think he'd get absolutely swallowed up in a fast paced system like that. And I think he'd break the offense when he did get the ball.


  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by LEvine View Post
    I think you (unintentionally?) hit on the biggest Wiggins problem:

    He's not good enough to be a primary scorer and he doesn't have the skills to be a complimentary one. He's stuck in no-man's land.

    I don't see him thriving at all in Houston. He's really bad at moving without the ball and he doesn't appear to see the court well. I think he'd get absolutely swallowed up in a fast paced system like that. And I think he'd break the offense when he did get the ball.
    I think the difference in our stances is that I think he has the skills to be a complementary one, but he has decided that he should be a primary one, so he chooses to play the game as a primary scorer.

    While I do agree with the court vision (I think it is his biggest problem on both ends of the court), I think he can move without the ball well. He used to move just fine with Rubio and LaVine. A lot of Wiggins' points came from cuts to the basket when Rubio drove into the lane. He was shooting well from deep last season with 3.5 attempts per game when he let the game just come instead of trying to force things. If you look at his splits for 2016-17, his first two quarters were over 40%, but it started to drop as he felt he needed to take the game on his shoulders. You'll see that his shots in general were assisted on over 50%, and his EFG was .525 for the first quarter. Later, his assist percent goes down and his efficiency plummets as well. If you look at his shot types in the first quarter, 64% of his shots at the rim were assisted, but in the 4th quarter only 42% were. For the 3-pointers, in the first he was at 74% assisted and in the fourth it dropped to 66%. Part of the change is the defense cracking down and taking some of the offense away that was there before. But, I strongly believe that part of the change is also in Wiggins' mindset and his need to take over a game at the end to prove he can be "the man".

    When it is not crunch time, Wiggins does play a pretty good complimentary role. When you have a guy that gets everyone involved and other people who move, Wiggins has proven to be able to run that style of offense pretty well and be a solid contributor. When the game gets late, the other options leave the floor, or people stop moving, Wiggins goes into hero-ball mode. And, he is not good at hero-ball mode.

    That said, there is no way to talk away the fact that even the best complimentary scorer that plays awful defense is not worth a 5-year max deal. I do get that and it's why I said that Houston is not a realistic option for a trade. I just think that if Wiggins stuck to what he was good at, he could fit. Though, you could be right that even if Wiggins decided to move the ball more in an offense that flows like Houston's, he is still not a great passer, so it could cause the offense to break down when he touches the ball.


  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by TJ Styles View Post
    Though, you could be right that even if Wiggins decided to move the ball more in an offense that flows like Houston's, he is still not a great passer, so it could cause the offense to break down when he touches the ball.
    I think one of his biggest problems is not seeing plays develop - on either end. He doesn't see the whole game, just where the ball is.

    On defense, he can lock in on his man when he has the ball and do a good job of staying in front of him. But when his man gives the ball up, Wiggins easily loses track of his guy as he "ball watches". A guy with his physical profile should be racking up deflections, steals and blocks, but his lack of awareness in a team setting keeps biting him in the ***.

    On offense, its kind of the same thing. He has a plan when he has the ball, but when he doesn't have it, he doesn't seem to have any purpose. Sure, he'll occasionally dive to the basket, but he doesn't have any of the "moving without the ball to get himself open" skills that nearly all good complimentary players have. He's more likely to be standing flatfooted watching the action instead of actively working to get something done.

    Morey has made a living finding guys who aren't as athletic as Wiggins, but are much more productive for what the Rockets want to do for peanuts. Hell, he just let Ariza and Mbah a Moute go instead of paying them because he knows he can replace them.

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  11. #31
    With our usual TWolves luck, the next thing that will happen with Wiggins is that he'll blow his knee or something. So we'll be paying max dollars for a guy who isn't good and who can't even play or be traded because of injury.


  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by LEvine View Post
    I think one of his biggest problems is not seeing plays develop - on either end. He doesn't see the whole game, just where the ball is.

    On defense, he can lock in on his man when he has the ball and do a good job of staying in front of him. But when his man gives the ball up, Wiggins easily loses track of his guy as he "ball watches". A guy with his physical profile should be racking up deflections, steals and blocks, but his lack of awareness in a team setting keeps biting him in the ***.

    On offense, its kind of the same thing. He has a plan when he has the ball, but when he doesn't have it, he doesn't seem to have any purpose. Sure, he'll occasionally dive to the basket, but he doesn't have any of the "moving without the ball to get himself open" skills that nearly all good complimentary players have. He's more likely to be standing flatfooted watching the action instead of actively working to get something done.

    Morey has made a living finding guys who aren't as athletic as Wiggins, but are much more productive for what the Rockets want to do for peanuts. Hell, he just let Ariza and Mbah a Moute go instead of paying them because he knows he can replace them.
    This is the most accurate analysis of Wiggins' game I've seen. Hats off to you.
    The sun shines again in Golden State as the hungry Wolves remain poised for the night to come


  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by LEvine View Post
    I think one of his biggest problems is not seeing plays develop - on either end. He doesn't see the whole game, just where the ball is.

    On defense, he can lock in on his man when he has the ball and do a good job of staying in front of him. But when his man gives the ball up, Wiggins easily loses track of his guy as he "ball watches". A guy with his physical profile should be racking up deflections, steals and blocks, but his lack of awareness in a team setting keeps biting him in the ***.

    On offense, its kind of the same thing. He has a plan when he has the ball, but when he doesn't have it, he doesn't seem to have any purpose. Sure, he'll occasionally dive to the basket, but he doesn't have any of the "moving without the ball to get himself open" skills that nearly all good complimentary players have. He's more likely to be standing flatfooted watching the action instead of actively working to get something done.

    Morey has made a living finding guys who aren't as athletic as Wiggins, but are much more productive for what the Rockets want to do for peanuts. Hell, he just let Ariza and Mbah a Moute go instead of paying them because he knows he can replace them.
    Is this all on Wiggins or does the coach have any responsibility through film study to point these things out over and over again? I would be on this kid 24/7 until he got it. Apparently coach Thibs lacks as a teacher too. No surprise there.

    I remember reading something that Thibs talked about late in his first year. He said something like after practice they would come in and watch some film of the past game. This was a short session. He would then send them off on their own to watch more film in their room. In their room?! On their own?!
    Hell, they're playing video games for P's sake.

    I would have a coach go over every minute of game play with the player instructing and asking the player what he's thinking in this situation. If a guy has gone 4 years in the league making the same mistakes game after game I don't blame the player so much for that. I blame the coach. Has Wiggins ever been benched here? I don't remember any obvious times.

    I've said it before about Popovich that I love the times his starters begin the game slow and lethargic and after 4 minutes are down by ten. Pop calls the time out and subs out the entire 1st unit!! Not for long. Maybe just for a minute or two. Then they come back better than ever.

    I think if Wiggins knew what to do, he would do it. If not, pull him in a visable way and see if he reacts to that.


  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Nick K View Post
    Is this all on Wiggins or does the coach have any responsibility through film study to point these things out over and over again? I would be on this kid 24/7 until he got it. Apparently coach Thibs lacks as a teacher too. No surprise there.

    I remember reading something that Thibs talked about late in his first year. He said something like after practice they would come in and watch some film of the past game. This was a short session. He would then send them off on their own to watch more film in their room. In their room?! On their own?!
    Hell, they're playing video games for P's sake.

    I would have a coach go over every minute of game play with the player instructing and asking the player what he's thinking in this situation. If a guy has gone 4 years in the league making the same mistakes game after game I don't blame the player so much for that. I blame the coach. Has Wiggins ever been benched here? I don't remember any obvious times.

    I've said it before about Popovich that I love the times his starters begin the game slow and lethargic and after 4 minutes are down by ten. Pop calls the time out and subs out the entire 1st unit!! Not for long. Maybe just for a minute or two. Then they come back better than ever.

    I think if Wiggins knew what to do, he would do it. If not, pull him in a visable way and see if he reacts to that.
    Sure, its all Self, Saunders, Mitchell and Thibs' fault...

    Some people just lack awareness. There is a big difference between knowing what to do and being able to do it.

    Coaches don't make nearly the impact you want them to.


  15. #35
    Mitchell worked with Wiggins every day for 2 years just to try to get him into a defensive stance.

    It never stuck.

    I've seen more effort and defensive fundamentals from Josh Okogee in 3 Summer League games than I have from Wiggins in 330 games...


  16. #36
    A few thoughts...

    Houston isn't a Wiggins destination IMO. Morey is a stats guy at heart and Wiggins analytics seem to rule him out there.

    If Ingram is actually available, i suspect the Spurs would prefer him to Wiggins. Same for the Cavs if the Spurs wanted Love.

    A big part of why a Wiggins deal won't happen is the optics. Wiggins is still viewed by casual fans as an uber future all star talent (including Taylor). It's the same reason why D Rose is still viewed as a good player and why trading Wiggins for a complementary player and expirings (if we are lucky) is going to be a tough sell and therefore a longshot.


  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by dschroeder01 View Post
    A few thoughts...

    Houston isn't a Wiggins destination IMO. Morey is a stats guy at heart and Wiggins analytics seem to rule him out there.

    If Ingram is actually available, i suspect the Spurs would prefer him to Wiggins. Same for the Cavs if the Spurs wanted Love.

    A big part of why a Wiggins deal won't happen is the optics. Wiggins is still viewed by casual fans as an uber future all star talent (including Taylor). It's the same reason why D Rose is still viewed as a good player and why trading Wiggins for a complementary player and expirings (if we are lucky) is going to be a tough sell and therefore a longshot.
    If we could somehow get in on any potential Kevin Love deal, maybe we can ship Wiggins off on CLE.

    I wouldn't be opposed to a Wiggins for Love swap straight up at this point...or, since they are looking to move Korver...I'd entertain taking on JR Smith's albatross along with Korver for Wiggins.

    BTW, such a deal would shave $3 mil off of our books and we wouldn't have had to stretch Aldrich out...which is another poor fiscal move given we may very well need that $700,000k the next two years to stay out of tax world.
    Inching back towards the wagon...slowly...


  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by LEvine View Post
    I'd take Ingram in a heartbeat. He made a massive jump in his 2nd year.

    Shot 47% from the field, 39% from 3. Nearly doubled his assists/36 and went from an awful defender as a rookie to a neutral one in a single season. And he's still only 20 years old.
    I didn't realize he took such a big leap forward, I only remembered his rookie year which seemed pretty awful to me. If that's the case I wouldn't mind it.


  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Scorched View Post
    I didn't realize he took such a big leap forward, I only remembered his rookie year which seemed pretty awful to me. If that's the case I wouldn't mind it.
    Yeah, it was lost in the Lonza/Kuzma hype, but he really improved.

    Of all their young guys, he's the one that I think has upside star potential.


  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by The Country Club View Post
    If we could somehow get in on any potential Kevin Love deal, maybe we can ship Wiggins off on CLE.

    I wouldn't be opposed to a Wiggins for Love swap straight up at this point...or, since they are looking to move Korver...I'd entertain taking on JR Smith's albatross along with Korver for Wiggins.

    BTW, such a deal would shave $3 mil off of our books and we wouldn't have had to stretch Aldrich out...which is another poor fiscal move given we may very well need that $700,000k the next two years to stay out of tax world.
    These are the kind of deals that will just never happen (not that any Wiggins deal is likely). There's no way Glen would ok a Wiggins trade for Korver and Smith. The average fan (and I'm putting Glen in with this kind of fan as that's where his mindset seems to be as far as analysis) wouldn't comprehend a deal where we're sending out the "massively" talented Wiggins for a 37 yr old shooter and bad contract.

    BTW, I'd take Love for Wiggins too, but I'm guessing that'd be a no from both Thibs and Glen.



 

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