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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by spiker View Post
    I'd like to see Wigs with a coach who wasn't a screamer. I understand the psychology of response to such perceived attack. It makes guys like Butler fight back. It makes guys like Wigs go into a shell. Call BS if you want, but my money says a coach like Flip would develop a different and better player. A good, non-rigid coach adjusts, and Thibs has shown he can't adjust to anything. Not even to a shift in bball style developing over the course of years. He's going to waste our best chance ever to have a contending watchable team. KAT would be well advised to talk to KG before his whole frustrating career is wasted being the single star on a team. If we do what's been promulgated here and on Canis, Thibs will stay another year, lose Tyus, Belly, Gorgi, and probably Wigs. We'll cap out on a few more end of career guys and have an unwatchable style of play with about the same win loss record as this year. KAT will put on the pressure and Thibs will finally be gone after decimating our youth talent and financial ability to do anything about it. I won't be watching it. I won't even pay attention. I will move on to another interest, as I've already begun.
    This kind of ties into my line of thinking.... I'm kind of "done" having to give up assets to get rid of bad contracts. I dont want to give up Tyus just to get Gorgi out the door. I dont want to give up a first along with shipping out Wiggins just to get rid of him. We cant do that.

    I have been deathly afraid that the scenario that you lay out (dumping young talent for over the hill vets) is absolutely going to play out with Thibs. And what the end result will be is that Thibs will be shown the door next year. I think its very likely that whatever happens Thibs will be shown the door next year. So rather than give away assets to get rid of Wiggins...I think we need to take a risk that a different coach may be able to get through to him after Thibs is gone. Otherwise, if we get rid of assets to get rid of him...we really end up with nothing. It may be a "nothing" that helps a little in the short run (i.e. next year) but in the long run we're maybe worse off.

    Summary: only trade wiggins if the deal is good.


  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by spiker View Post
    I'd like to see Wigs with a coach who wasn't a screamer. I understand the psychology of response to such perceived attack. It makes guys like Butler fight back. It makes guys like Wigs go into a shell. Call BS if you want, but my money says a coach like Flip would develop a different and better player. A good, non-rigid coach adjusts, and Thibs has shown he can't adjust to anything. Not even to a shift in bball style developing over the course of years. He's going to waste our best chance ever to have a contending watchable team. KAT would be well advised to talk to KG before his whole frustrating career is wasted being the single star on a team. If we do what's been promulgated here and on Canis, Thibs will stay another year, lose Tyus, Belly, Gorgi, and probably Wigs. We'll cap out on a few more end of career guys and have an unwatchable style of play with about the same win loss record as this year. KAT will put on the pressure and Thibs will finally be gone after decimating our youth talent and financial ability to do anything about it. I won't be watching it. I won't even pay attention. I will move on to another interest, as I've already begun.
    According to Sam, it doesn't seem to matter if you yell at Wiggins or treat him with kid gloves. Nothing fazes or appears to get through to him.


  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by LEvine View Post
    According to Sam, it doesn't seem to matter if you yell at Wiggins or treat him with kid gloves. Nothing fazes or appears to get through to him.
    Sam's kid gloves would probably put most of us in the fetal position.


  4. #24
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
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    1,089
    I think what needs to happen is Thibs and Layden need to demonstrate that they are going to take 3 pointers seriously. That's what Glen wants and he isn't willing to wait any longer for the "right" guy. I think what needs to happen is we need to trade Wiggins however possible without taking a lot back. Then we need top tier catch and shoot talent from three. JJ, Korver, Love, Hield...someone like that. Looking at the list of top 3pt percentage of active players is interesting.

    The addition of a top tier catch and shoot talent and the subtraction of Wigs will solve half our problems. If that catch and shoot talent can play a bit of D, that would be good too, but I think it's more important to have that reliable spacing on offense that makes things so much easier for everyone that everyone can step it up a notch on defense because the offense becomes so easy, that we save energy there.

    Buddy Hield would be ideal if we can pry him away to see if he is a good fit. Even if it costs us Wiggins, I'm fine with it. Hield is someone that can take 5 catch and shoot threes with little or no space needed to get it off. Plus, he'll hit half of them. I think that is the player Glen wants at the two guard if Butler is playing the three.
    The sun shines again in Golden State as the hungry Wolves remain poised for the night to come


  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by rackshaq View Post
    I think what needs to happen is Thibs and Layden need to demonstrate that they are going to take 3 pointers seriously. That's what Glen wants and he isn't willing to wait any longer for the "right" guy. I think what needs to happen is we need to trade Wiggins however possible without taking a lot back. Then we need top tier catch and shoot talent from three. JJ, Korver, Love, Hield...someone like that. Looking at the list of top 3pt percentage of active players is interesting.

    The addition of a top tier catch and shoot talent and the subtraction of Wigs will solve half our problems. If that catch and shoot talent can play a bit of D, that would be good too, but I think it's more important to have that reliable spacing on offense that makes things so much easier for everyone that everyone can step it up a notch on defense because the offense becomes so easy, that we save energy there.

    Buddy Hield would be ideal if we can pry him away to see if he is a good fit. Even if it costs us Wiggins, I'm fine with it. Hield is someone that can take 5 catch and shoot threes with little or no space needed to get it off. Plus, he'll hit half of them. I think that is the player Glen wants at the two guard if Butler is playing the three.
    I'm not a fan of Hield but you can make some interesting iterations with Sacramento taking back Wiggins. If it netted us Bogdon I'd be very interested. Sacramento has such a flawed front office they would probably sign off on Wiggins while ignoring his numbers.


  6. #26
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    Dec 2004
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    18,145
    Quote Originally Posted by Cory View Post
    I'm not a fan of Hield but you can make some interesting iterations with Sacramento taking back Wiggins. If it netted us Bogdon I'd be very interested. Sacramento has such a flawed front office they would probably sign off on Wiggins while ignoring his numbers.
    I'm not sure SAC would want Wiggins if they draft Mikal Bridges.

    That said, regarding 3 point shooting...here's how I would determine my pecking order.

    http://bkref.com/tiny/kqPCm

    Guys who shoot 3 or more 3's per game and hit 39% of them, ranked in increasing order of usage...in other words, don't need the ball much and will shoot it reasonably well when they get it.

    Joe Harris is someone that I think we could probably get on a reasonable offer and is a UFA.
    Inching back towards the wagon...slowly...


  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by The Country Club View Post
    I'm not sure SAC would want Wiggins if they draft Mikal Bridges.

    That said, regarding 3 point shooting...here's how I would determine my pecking order.

    http://bkref.com/tiny/kqPCm

    Guys who shoot 3 or more 3's per game and hit 39% of them, ranked in increasing order of usage...in other words, don't need the ball much and will shoot it reasonably well when they get it.

    Joe Harris is someone that I think we could probably get on a reasonable offer and is a UFA.
    Good name. I still think if we are looking to dump G, attaching Tyus and sending them for Snell would probably be the best we could hope for.


  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Cory View Post
    I'm not a fan of Hield but you can make some interesting iterations with Sacramento taking back Wiggins. If it netted us Bogdon I'd be very interested. Sacramento has such a flawed front office they would probably sign off on Wiggins while ignoring his numbers.
    I'm super surprised at how much Hield has improved. I hated him in the draft, but he’s actually quite good.

    42% from 3 on over 5/game for his career and he took a huge jump on defense this year.

    DRPM:
    2016-17: -2.28
    2017-18: -0.89

    Besides being a way better shooter, he's a better rebounder, passer and defender than Wiggins. Looking at how much defensive improvement he made from his rookie to sophomore year, its not unreasonable to expect him to be a positive on that end as soon as next year.

    (And while older, he's also played 8000 fewer minutes)

    1 members liked this post.

  9. #29
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    Mar 2006
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    1,089
    Quote Originally Posted by The Country Club View Post
    I'm not sure SAC would want Wiggins if they draft Mikal Bridges.

    That said, regarding 3 point shooting...here's how I would determine my pecking order.

    http://bkref.com/tiny/kqPCm

    Guys who shoot 3 or more 3's per game and hit 39% of them, ranked in increasing order of usage...in other words, don't need the ball much and will shoot it reasonably well when they get it.

    Joe Harris is someone that I think we could probably get on a reasonable offer and is a UFA.
    Beyond volume, I think the actual 3pt% is more important to look at than Usage %. I'm starting to not like the Usage percentage stat as much after trying to figure out how everything is weighted in it. It seems like someone could put together a similar stat that would be much more useful than Usage. Players, like Hield, that are specifically good on catch and shoot opportunities, would be the ideal candidates to replace Wiggins.
    The sun shines again in Golden State as the hungry Wolves remain poised for the night to come


  10. #30
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    Dec 2004
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    18,145
    Quote Originally Posted by rackshaq View Post
    Beyond volume, I think the actual 3pt% is more important to look at than Usage %. I'm starting to not like the Usage percentage stat as much after trying to figure out how everything is weighted in it. It seems like someone could put together a similar stat that would be much more useful than Usage. Players, like Hield, that are specifically good on catch and shoot opportunities, would be the ideal candidates to replace Wiggins.
    The thing about usage is it matters in context with who else is on your roster. Having a low usage, relatively high efficiency player (Ingles, Horford, Taj) do wonders for roster balance since they're more apt to do dirty work that the diva usage guys won't often do.

    I like Hield and can get behind it but usage does sorta matter in context. It's not a catch all stat but it's still a valuable tool.
    Inching back towards the wagon...slowly...


  11. #31
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by rackshaq View Post
    Beyond volume, I think the actual 3pt% is more important to look at than Usage %. I'm starting to not like the Usage percentage stat as much after trying to figure out how everything is weighted in it. It seems like someone could put together a similar stat that would be much more useful than Usage. Players, like Hield, that are specifically good on catch and shoot opportunities, would be the ideal candidates to replace Wiggins.
    I agree that Usage is not the "end all, be all" stat, but I do feel it does exactly what it is meant to do. It looks at a player's FGAs, TOVs, and weighted FTAs (at 44%) against the team. That is, technically, the 3 ways a team can end a possession. Either you shoot the ball, you go to the three point line, or the opposition gets the ball. Now, I get that an offensive rebound "extends" the possession, which is why the Usage stat weighs against the algorithm calculated against the entire team instead of weighing it against possessions. I do agree that it is only part of the picture, and there are many ways they could take that basic concept and extrapolate other data from it. I do feel that Usage being used outside of a team context is a bit "noisy" because there are many different factors involved, and it based on a team stat as opposed to a normalized league stat. Someone could have a very high usage on their particular team while the same production on another team would be much lower.

    What are you wanting to see from a stat like Usage? I originally though assists were in there, but looking at the formula I found that to not be the case. The reason I ask is because there could be comparable stats out there now that we are not aware of that do exactly what you want and by saying what it is you are looking for some of the guys that know all of the sites everywhere might just give you a link.


  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by The Country Club View Post
    I'm not sure SAC would want Wiggins if they draft Mikal Bridges.

    That said, regarding 3 point shooting...here's how I would determine my pecking order.

    http://bkref.com/tiny/kqPCm

    Guys who shoot 3 or more 3's per game and hit 39% of them, ranked in increasing order of usage...in other words, don't need the ball much and will shoot it reasonably well when they get it.

    Joe Harris is someone that I think we could probably get on a reasonable offer and is a UFA.
    I want Mikal Bridges. I love that guy. I'd find a way to trade up to get him. Reminds me of Paul George on draft night. Perfect fit for us. Then we could move Wiggins. I would love to have Jamal Murray if Denver would let him go. All we had to do was take him on draft night as he was a perfect fit with Ricky. No need to get Teague.

    BTW, I like Joe Harris too that you mentioned.


  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by LEvine View Post
    I'm super surprised at how much Hield has improved. I hated him in the draft, but he’s actually quite good.

    42% from 3 on over 5/game for his career and he took a huge jump on defense this year.

    DRPM:
    2016-17: -2.28
    2017-18: -0.89

    Besides being a way better shooter, he's a better rebounder, passer and defender than Wiggins. Looking at how much defensive improvement he made from his rookie to sophomore year, its not unreasonable to expect him to be a positive on that end as soon as next year.

    (And while older, he's also played 8000 fewer minutes)
    Intriguing. I didn't think he showed as much but that was probably early returns on the year. Getting one of Bogdon or Hield along with Temple and a pick possibly would be enough to push me in on a deal. If Vivek is still running the show I think there is shot you could ask for Bogdon, Hield, and Koufos and call it a night. That would be a pipe dream but the Kings are as unpredictable as any franchise in the NBA.


  14. #34
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    Mar 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by TJ Styles View Post

    What are you wanting to see from a stat like Usage? I originally though assists were in there, but looking at the formula I found that to not be the case. The reason I ask is because there could be comparable stats out there now that we are not aware of that do exactly what you want and by saying what it is you are looking for some of the guys that know all of the sites everywhere might just give you a link.
    You're right, upon closer analysis, Usage does seem to do what it was intended for pretty well. I'm guessing FTAs are weighed at 0.44 due to AND1s counting as both FTAs and FGAs.
    The sun shines again in Golden State as the hungry Wolves remain poised for the night to come



 

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