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  1. #1

    KAT Extension Talks

    While I don't think it's a nail in the coffin moment, KAT's comments at his basketball camp are telling at minimum. He was really reluctant to say anything and Jon K I think mentioned that his handlers didn't want any questions on his extension asked so they did a good job of working around that by asking a question about him and his feelings for the community. The fact that he wouldn't even touch that very far is worrisome.

    I saw Gaardsy tweet that he wouldn't have attended the camp if they couldn't ask KAT questions on his extension which for a reporter may be the case but I ultimately have more respect for KAT wanting to handle things face to face with Wolves brass rather than through the media if he really does have serious reservations. I think that's a pretty likely scenario here.

    At best I think, KAT signs around the same time that Wiggins did last year. It will be interesting watch what gets leaked.


  2. #2
    Not worried. It'll be a 5 year Max, no options - and it'll have a clause to bump it to a Super Max if he makes another All-NBA team.

    Even the Wolves won't screw this one up.


  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by LEvine View Post
    Not worried. It'll be a 5 year Max, no options - and it'll have a clause to bump it to a Super Max if he makes another All-NBA team.

    Even the Wolves won't screw this one up.
    I would be more confident in the Wolves not screwing it up if they hadn't low-balled Butler after giving Wiggins the max. I do believe a deal will get done, but the way we have been doing things has been so backwards that I have less than 100% confidence on things that should be certain.


  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by TJ Styles View Post
    I would be more confident in the Wolves not screwing it up if they hadn't low-balled Butler after giving Wiggins the max. I do believe a deal will get done, but the way we have been doing things has been so backwards that I have less than 100% confidence on things that should be certain.
    Ugh...They didn't low-ball Butler.

    They offered him the very most they could at the first opportunity they could offer anything.

    They knew he wasn't going to accept it. It was a courtesy offer - a show that he's wanted. Even Butler said he appreciated the gesture.


  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by LEvine View Post
    Ugh...They didn't low-ball Butler.

    They offered him the very most they could at the first opportunity they could offer anything.

    They knew he wasn't going to accept it. It was a courtesy offer - a show that he's wanted. Even Butler said he appreciated the gesture.
    $110 million over 4 years is the max for a player with 7 years experience? According to the CBM FAQ, the max for 7 years is $30,560,700 and even without raises that comes to $122,242,800 and with raises of 5% (I believe he is eligible for the 8% raises, but I am not sure so I will go with 5%), it becomes $131,720,437 (and with 8% it becomes $137M). I know you know the salary and CBM stuff much better than I do, so I am sure there is something here I don't understand, but this is why I came to the conclusion that we low-balled him. What piece am I missing here? I double-checked the exceptions in the CBM FAQ and they all involve the max increasing, not decreasing for a player.


    Edit: I will say it is reassuring to hear that Butler expressed gratitude to the offer. I didn't see that part and I get to hear people talk about the "Butler issue in MN" over the contract all the time. People are talking about how Butler is going to walk next season because he declined the offer, which I don't listen to, but it is still nice to hear that it was well-received by Butler.


  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by TJ Styles View Post
    $110 million over 4 years is the max for a player with 7 years experience? According to the CBM FAQ, the max for 7 years is $30,560,700 and even without raises that comes to $122,242,800 and with raises of 5% (I believe he is eligible for the 8% raises, but I am not sure so I will go with 5%), it becomes $131,720,437 (and with 8% it becomes $137M). I know you know the salary and CBM stuff much better than I do, so I am sure there is something here I don't understand, but this is why I came to the conclusion that we low-balled him. What piece am I missing here? I double-checked the exceptions in the CBM FAQ and they all involve the max increasing, not decreasing for a player.


    Edit: I will say it is reassuring to hear that Butler expressed gratitude to the offer. I didn't see that part and I get to hear people talk about the "Butler issue in MN" over the contract all the time. People are talking about how Butler is going to walk next season because he declined the offer, which I don't listen to, but it is still nice to hear that it was well-received by Butler.
    I should probably wait until levine chimes in with the correct answer, but I think it is because we are talking about an extension of a current contract. his current salary is about 20 million, so his raises for the next 4 years would be based on that salary. once that expires (or he opts out after next year), he can start at the number you mentioned. hence, he notes the courtesy offer and waits until it makes financial sense to sign his new deal.

    <edit> his 8% raises are actually based on the first extension year value, so 120% of his 20 million.

    http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q58


  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by TJ Styles View Post
    $110 million over 4 years is the max for a player with 7 years experience? According to the CBM FAQ, the max for 7 years is $30,560,700 and even without raises that comes to $122,242,800 and with raises of 5% (I believe he is eligible for the 8% raises, but I am not sure so I will go with 5%), it becomes $131,720,437 (and with 8% it becomes $137M). I know you know the salary and CBM stuff much better than I do, so I am sure there is something here I don't understand, but this is why I came to the conclusion that we low-balled him. What piece am I missing here? I double-checked the exceptions in the CBM FAQ and they all involve the max increasing, not decreasing for a player.


    Edit: I will say it is reassuring to hear that Butler expressed gratitude to the offer. I didn't see that part and I get to hear people talk about the "Butler issue in MN" over the contract all the time. People are talking about how Butler is going to walk next season because he declined the offer, which I don't listen to, but it is still nice to hear that it was well-received by Butler.
    What you're missing is he isn't a free agent at this time. Nor does he have the option to be one. This would be an extension of his existing contract, not a new contract in any way. Extending a contract is not the same thing as a new contract. Its based on the existing contract's numbers. 110 Million over 4 years was the absolute most money we could offer him.

    Next year, as a free agent, Butler will be eligible for four-year, $141 million offers from other teams and a five-year, $188 million extension from Minnesota.


  8. #8
    Darren Wolfson@DWolfsonKSTP
    Jimmy/his side expressed gratitude for the #Twolves extending such a nice offer. Logically speaking, it just makes sense to wait, even while betting on maintaining health. He can make a lot more $$ here or elsewhere next July.
    12:10 PM - 13 Jul 2018


  9. #9
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    Thanks guys, that clears it up. After I posted my question I realized the numbers in the CBA FAQ were for 2018-19 and I thought it might have to do with his existing contract, but I didn't want to post more questions on top of questions. I figured you guys would be able to explain it.

    That is an interesting situation. I am glad Butler took it as a nice gesture. I know some people who would consider it being an attempt to "dupe" them into taking less. I think if that had happened with Love there would have been some fireworks, but I suspect that Butler being so close to Thibs made it clear what the intention was with the offer.


  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by TJ Styles View Post

    That is an interesting situation. I am glad Butler took it as a nice gesture. I know some people who would consider it being an attempt to "dupe" them into taking less. I think if that had happened with Love there would have been some fireworks, but I suspect that Butler being so close to Thibs made it clear what the intention was with the offer.
    I think you'd have to have a really bad agent to not understand exactly what it is: Its the first time since we traded for Butler that we could offer him anything. And we offered him the most money the CBA would allow us to.

    Its hard to spin it as a negative when you have the facts. Which is why people freaking out on Twitter because he turned it down have no idea what they're talking about.


  11. #11
    What I fear is that KAT's reticence is about Thibs as a coach, not anything else. And Taylor missed his justified opportunity to free the twolves from him. Now Thibs has to further prove his reasons for being fired. And if the twolves win, it will be harder to justify. KAT may already have expressed this sentiment and Taylor is going to force him to endure another season, which may be enough for KAT to look for greener pastures, even in the face of a non renewal of Thibs and the hiring of another coach.


  12. #12
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    Just saw the clip. Doesn't look good. Sounds to me like Towns could get traded or Butler is getting aggressive about getting his teammates into the gym early. Wiggins knows how to play the sidekick game better than Towns. That said, Butler still has to stay healthy for a full year before he can demand that kind of respect. Towns taking some vacation time is fine. I can't imagine him getting traded and us getting better. There just aren't that many elite players in this league and Towns is bonafide elite.
    The sun shines again in Golden State as the hungry Wolves remain poised for the night to come


  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by rackshaq View Post
    Just saw the clip. Doesn't look good. Sounds to me like Towns could get traded or Butler is getting aggressive about getting his teammates into the gym early. Wiggins knows how to play the sidekick game better than Towns. That said, Butler still has to stay healthy for a full year before he can demand that kind of respect. Towns taking some vacation time is fine. I can't imagine him getting traded and us getting better. There just aren't that many elite players in this league and Towns is bonafide elite.
    Towns isnt getting traded. I think people need to stop with this talk. Glen will fire Thibs before he trades Towns. It really is that simple.


  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by kingsxman View Post
    Towns isnt getting traded. I think people need to stop with this talk. Glen will fire Thibs before he trades Towns. It really is that simple.
    I agree. It'll be dragged out because we're the Timberwolves and nothing can go smoothly, but it'll get done.


  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by rackshaq View Post
    Just saw the clip. Doesn't look good. Sounds to me like Towns could get traded or Butler is getting aggressive about getting his teammates into the gym early. Wiggins knows how to play the sidekick game better than Towns. That said, Butler still has to stay healthy for a full year before he can demand that kind of respect. Towns taking some vacation time is fine. I can't imagine him getting traded and us getting better. There just aren't that many elite players in this league and Towns is bonafide elite.
    Couldn't disagree with the bolded more. The whole reason there was any debate what-so-ever about Towns and Okafor in the draft is because Towns took a backseat to the rest of the talent on his team and played the sidekick a little too well. Towns was fifth in usage last season and didn't say a word. Wiggins had the most usage out of the 3 for the better part of the season until Butler passed him down the stretch, but he was bitching about being the third option. To me, Towns is much more equipped with deferring to another than Wiggins. Wiggins wants to be the franchise player. Towns wants to win. Between Wiggins and Towns, Towns is the one that will sacrifice his game for the team.


  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by TJ Styles View Post
    Couldn't disagree with the bolded more. The whole reason there was any debate what-so-ever about Towns and Okafor in the draft is because Towns took a backseat to the rest of the talent on his team and played the sidekick a little too well. Towns was fifth in usage last season and didn't say a word. Wiggins had the most usage out of the 3 for the better part of the season until Butler passed him down the stretch, but he was bitching about being the third option. To me, Towns is much more equipped with deferring to another than Wiggins. Wiggins wants to be the franchise player. Towns wants to win. Between Wiggins and Towns, Towns is the one that will sacrifice his game for the team.
    The problem is we don't want Towns sacrificing any of his game for the team. He is our best player. Wigs has to shut the bleep up and play the 3rd wheel or step up his game big time.


  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by TJ Styles View Post
    Couldn't disagree with the bolded more. The whole reason there was any debate what-so-ever about Towns and Okafor in the draft is because Towns took a backseat to the rest of the talent on his team and played the sidekick a little too well. Towns was fifth in usage last season and didn't say a word. Wiggins had the most usage out of the 3 for the better part of the season until Butler passed him down the stretch, but he was bitching about being the third option. To me, Towns is much more equipped with deferring to another than Wiggins. Wiggins wants to be the franchise player. Towns wants to win. Between Wiggins and Towns, Towns is the one that will sacrifice his game for the team.
    What I'm getting at is that Wiggins knows he won't ever be on Butler's level and therefore has to defer to Butler's leadership if he wants any sort of respect from Butler and leeway from Thibs. Towns could possibly be better than Butler next year (bit sturdier) and therefore can pretty much do things his way. Get to the gym when he gets there, practice what he wants to practice, etc. A little healthy rivalry between Butler and Towns is fine. I just dont like the idea of waiting for Wiggins to emerge, because I think there is only a 50 percent chance Wiggins' value improves by next summer. That said, if it improves, it likely improves a lot and we see what we really have with this team. If he can't make the next step, his value likely plunges and he'll become untradeable.
    The sun shines again in Golden State as the hungry Wolves remain poised for the night to come


  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick K View Post
    The problem is we don't want Towns sacrificing any of his game for the team. He is our best player. Wigs has to shut the bleep up and play the 3rd wheel or step up his game big time.
    I don't dispute that we don't want Towns playing sidekick to Butler (or especially Wiggins). I am simply saying that Towns has the ability to accept a lesser role and A) not complain; and B) still produce at a high level. Wiggins does not. Perfect scenario is we have Butler and Towns sharing the load evenly (or even Butler being Towns' sidekick offensively and being the vocal leader on defense), but if I have to choose between having Wiggins as the sidekick and trading Towns or having Towns as the sidekick and trading Wiggins (or even keeping Wiggins and listening to him complain about being the 3rd option behind two players who are obviously more efficient on offense), I would take the latter. Wiggins simply cannot be a sidekick. He does not have the mentality to take one for the team. If the biggest spotlight isn't on him, he complains. If he isn't getting the most touches, he checks out, even in game. I do want to see Towns bring more effort to the game on both sides, but I have not seen Towns dial back simply because he wasn't the "star" on the team for a night. That is what I mean.

    Quote Originally Posted by rackshaq View Post
    What I'm getting at is that Wiggins knows he won't ever be on Butler's level and therefore has to defer to Butler's leadership if he wants any sort of respect from Butler and leeway from Thibs. Towns could possibly be better than Butler next year (bit sturdier) and therefore can pretty much do things his way. Get to the gym when he gets there, practice what he wants to practice, etc. A little healthy rivalry between Butler and Towns is fine. I just dont like the idea of waiting for Wiggins to emerge, because I think there is only a 50 percent chance Wiggins' value improves by next summer. That said, if it improves, it likely improves a lot and we see what we really have with this team. If he can't make the next step, his value likely plunges and he'll become untradeable.
    That is the part that I disagree with. Wiggins has already complained publicly about having to "fall in line" behind Butler and Towns, and he did it at a time when his usage was hilariously higher than both of those two players. I literally think the exact opposite of you on this. I think Towns gets that he has to "play nice" with Butler to get on Thibs' good side. I think Wiggins thinks he has a golden parachute because Glen went to bat for him (and probably doesn't even care about being on Thibs' good side after Glen had to go to bat for him). I think that if Towns gets traded (won't happen, but let's talk hypothetical for a moment to make my point) and Wiggins is asked to "become Butler's sidekick" (cause right now Towns is clearly ahead of Wiggins on basically every pecking order besides the one in Wiggins' head), there will be some fireworks. I do not think Wiggins can process that role in his head. I believe that Wiggins actually believes he is better than Butler. To Wiggins, athleticism = talent. He's got "hops", so he should be the leader of the team. Towns gets it. When KG was here, he shut up and absorbed as much as he could from KG. Now that Butler is here, he shuts up and learns as much as Butler can teach him. Wiggins does what Wiggins wants. I haven't seen Wiggins improve a single discernible aspect of his game since he entered the league. Some of his skills have improved, but it seems to me they improved about as much as they should when you start doing something for a living against better competition. Take someone like Brook Lopez. He added a 3 point shot over one off season. Wiggins hasn't added anything. If anything, some of his skills has regressed from the time he was working with Flip. I believe that Wiggins thinks he is already a superstar, and that he doesn't have to work to improve his game. And, a guy like Butler, who's highlight reel is short and boring, couldn't possibly teach a guy like Wiggins anything. Cause, Wiggins has "hops".


    I do think that Towns should be the feature of this team. Butler should be our "1B option", even though I hate those designations. I would love to see Wiggins get traded at this point. I think he has the skillset to be a good complementary player, but I don't think he will ever have the mental capacity to accept that role. I would actually not be opposed to trading Wiggins, moving Teague to SG and letting Tyus run the offense as the starting PG. We would have a smaller than desirable back court, but I think the flow of the offense would improve by leaps and bounds. And get Taj working more on that corner 3 that he showed in preseason last year. I want to see more of Towns alone in the paint forcing the defense to react. It doesn't have to be the scheme, but I think getting Towns a good dozen touches alone in the paint will force the defense to cheat off of someone and allow us to get some better ball movement. Or, if they decide to go 1:1 with Towns, it will get him some free throws.



 

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